Guestsplaining: Sean Bryan on Evangelization as the Papal Ninja | Fr. Gregory Pine & Fr. Patrick
September 2, 2024
Fr. Patrick: And this is Father Patrick Briscoe.
And welcome to Godsplaining. Thanks to all those who support us. If you enjoy the show, please consider making a monthly donation on Patreon. If you don’t enjoy the show, please consider blaming Father Patrick. We are delighted for this episode of guest planning to welcome Sean Bryan, also known as the Papal Ninja. Thanks for joining.
Sean: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Fr. Gregory: Okay, so many people will have seen you on American Ninja Warrior, at least those among us who have refined TV viewing tastes/culture. I’d even elevate it to the level of culture. If it were longer, I’d refer to it as cinema, but seeing as it’s not I won’t. Nevertheless, there may be some people on our audience who have not watched American Ninja Warrior. For those could you get them up to speed and introduce yourself.
Sean: My name is Sean Bryan. I’m mostly known for being the Papal Ninja on American Ninja Warrior. This audience will probably know what papal means, but I usually tell people and they over-relate it to the Pope. [laughter] Like, the Pope gives a blessing, It’s a papal blessing. So yeah, so the Papal Ninja would be me, but I like to tell everyone else that they’re also papal ninjas because the ninja is a specialized… someone who uses their specialized skill set to accomplish the mission of the One who sent them and that’s what apostles are and that’s what we are called to as baptized. So we’re all papal ninjas and I’m just claiming it on TV and trying to get that message out there. But aside from that what American Ninja Warrior is is a reality TV show that’s a contest of obstacle course racing and there’s various stages that you have to get through and the grand prize is a million dollars. So that’s that’s what I’ve been trying to do for the last nine years. I’ve come pretty close on a couple of occasions but we’ll see about this upcoming season but that’s what I’m most known for, but I also have a ministry with the Dominicans in the Western Dominican Province, particularly with Father Michael Sweeney, called the Lay Mission Project, where we do a formation for lay people. It’s a pretty robust three-year formation, and I help him run that and basically help people to live their faith in their day life and to create good and the common good in the world.
Fr. Gregory: Boom, that’s sweet. Okay, so I have many questions already. But I suppose my first question is, why did you go Papal Ninja? So you just went like outright papal rather than being like the Jesus ninja or the Christian ninja or the Catholic ninja. You’re like, I’m going to go for that thing which upsets people the most. So explain that reasoning.
Sean: Well, it upsets people the most, yes and no, I guess you can. I didn’t want Catholic ninja because I didn’t want to beat people over the head with the Faith. And I think it was more about the faith…
Fr. Patrick: [laughter] So let’s back that up…so you went with something a lot more subtle.
Sean: [laughter] Yes, like most people, they don’t understand papal. I think inside baseball we understand papal quite a bit, but most people are like, “Papal, is it a place?
Fr. Patrick: [laughter] I’m just still stuck in this. I love this thought process, Catholic – oh, that’s too strong. Hold back. Papal. Hey, there we go.
Fr. Gregory: Yeah, exactly.
Sean: Yeah, and also, I don’t wanna be The Papal Ninja, meaning like there’s lots of other ninjas who are Catholic, including Joe Maroffsky’s probably one of the more well-known ones, and I don’t to be the one claiming like, “Oh, no others could come after me.” But no, I want to pass the baton eventually kind of thing. Don’t really have anyone queued up for that, but I want to leave also in that possibility. Yeah, so I think it is a little bit more subtle. Most people who might be prejudice would already be in a conversation with me, my foot’s already in the door and they’re like, “Oh, this is a normal guy before exercising that prejudice. So yeah, that’s why I went with papal. I didn’t want to be just Christian Ninja because I wanted to be really explicit about the faith that I profess. And that’s actually, I think it gained favor with the producers as well. At first, I thought that’s not a good idea. Everyone has to pitch their story, and I was at first going to be talking about being a collegiate gymnast and saying how college gymnastics is going through a hard time right now, I wanted to get that message across. I was being a little hesitant with being explicit about the Faith, and at the time, I was still uncertain about where I was going in life, and I didn’t know if I wanted that to be the thing that defines me. But the veterans on the show and my good friends now were encouraging me. No, they’re going to eat it up. They love something along those lines. It doesn’t matter like the scandals and full force at the time. And they’re just like, no, it’s about the beauty. It’s about the unique situations, about your unique story. And these are secular guys who really had nothing to do with the Faith who were encouraged me to do this. And I took a lot of heart from that and ended up pitching it and they loved it. They came in sent a production crew to the Salesians. I was living with the Salesians at that time while I was getting my theology degree at the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. And it was great. Ever since then, it’s been, I’ve been not hesitant at all to let people know about the Faith.
Fr. Patrick: Sean, I was actually thinking of you yesterday just before this interview. I was at my god-daughter’s birthday party. And I was chatting with a couple of the parents there and one mother shared a recent moment, her son pulled her aside. And they were having a conversation about marriage and about romance. Her daughter had initiated the conversation. Her daughter who was very young, too young to be interested in all these things, very interested in romance. And so she looked at her son and she said that, what, you know, the daughter really wants to be married. She looked at the son and the son says, ask the son if he wants to be married. And the son says, “no, mom I don’t want to be married.” And she holds her breath. You know, she’s really excited and she thinks, well, maybe he’s thinking about a vocation to the priesthood. And the son says, “yeah, mom, I can’t be married because ninjas aren’t married, and I wanna be a ninja.” But I love this idea though, that part of being a ninja is this rigorous life. You know more culturally about this conception of a ninja than I do, but certainly you’ve experienced a great deal of discipline in your life and all the physical training you’ve undertaken both in your time as a college gymnast and in your time competing on the show. So I thought it would be interesting for our listeners. Can you make this connection between the kind of discipline that you’ve built up in your life by participating in these physical challenges and the kind of discipline that’s needed to sustain the spiritual life that you are keeping up with while you’re participating in all these endeavors.
Sean: Sure. I guess I’ll start with discipline. I guess it sounds very close to disciple. They share the same etymological route and it requires persistence and repetition. And the only way to that is to start small and to chip our way into a virtue, I guess you could say, virtue is basically a good habit, a habit oriented toward the good. And if we were to create any virtue or any habit whatsoever, it requires repetition. And I think because ever since I was little, I did gymnastics, it just was a part of me that you had to do it every day. And you have a lot more, I guess you can say persistence when you’re little, and that created a good habit. But I’ve seen lots of people have bad habits that they overcome with simple steps, very small steps along the way. And I’ve seen them overcome bad habits by doing disciplines like ninja or other sports like CrossFit or anything that requires a large amount of discipline or even learning a musical instrument where you start to see progress and sometimes we forget about all the little things that celebrate because we have our eyes so set on the future of this big grand thing and the big grand thing when we get there isn’t necessarily something that’s even greatly celebrated and we forget about all the little things along the way. So a hack that I’ve pointed out to lots of people is create smaller goals, create more things to celebrate along the way. And I think that’s one of the easiest ways to get disciplined in something and to grow in virtue.
Fr. Patrick: So what was an example from your time in training. What was something that was a kind of smaller goal that led to a bigger accomplishment for you?
Sean: All right, let’s go back to gymnastics. I was starting to, when I started to apply to colleges, I didn’t think I was that good. I was a late bloomer and I used to be pretty good when I was a little, but my body size grew faster than my hormones were able to produce muscle to support and I was a little clumsy and I thought I just have to go to any college and I’m not really that good anymore and I went to the closest college to me but it wasn’t necessarily a place that was disciplined and toward becoming the best. And when I got there, I had some people take me under their wing and show me little things that I needed to do in order to get these skills needed in order to get to the next level, I guess you could say. And all these things were basic foundational techniques that I was missing. I was always, I guess, strong and explosive, even when I was little, but that made up for a lot of, I guess, sins of doing things not perfectly, more of the foundational things. And that carries over into the spiritual life as well. But sticking with gymnastics, I slowly sort of chip away at those skills at the same time that I was, I guess, being able to support my body with more, with more muscle mass over the first two years of college. And that gave me what I needed in order to transfer to go to Cal, which was on a top schools at the time, and to be able to really excel and reach my potential. So I guess, very, very specifically, let’s say, a handstand. So, you can’t do these crazy sorts of skills where you go upside down turn, catch with one arm, spin on that one arm and catch if you don’t have a really good alignment. If you’re letting your hips go over and your arch, or you’re piking a little bit and you’re trying to turn, it creates this weird moment of inertia, I guess you could say that isn’t balanced and doesn’t spin very fast. So if you fix your handstand and make it perfectly straight and you just move along this axis or this axis and separate them, then you’ll be able to turn and do things a lot better. That one little correction changed my horizontal bar, changed my parallel bars, changed my rings, and it exponentially made better all the other more difficult skills. So little things like that in the spiritual life too. If you don’t have a habit of prayer, if you don’t have a morning prayer, if you don’t regularly talk to our Lord in conversation, and you’re not going to be able to really overcome the great temptations of life, and you’re not going to overcome some of the very difficult emotional times of loss and those sort of things. So you need to have a strong foundation habits of doing things little by little and growing in that relationship in order to have it strong enough to overcome the obstacles of life.
Fr. Gregory: Okay. I watched American Ninja Warrior during the 2017-2018 Louisville Kentucky heyday of my life, especially with my fellow Pro-Kill-Vicker one-father Louis Berkshire Lemoine, and I became deeply invested. But as a result of which, I was often deeply disappointed, right? Because like, you get to know these people, and these people do really well. And then at some tragic point, there’s like a misstep or a misgrip or a miss whatever, and then they fall off, and it’s over. And that’s brutal. And I think like a lot of people are accustomed to such brutality from, you know, their professional sports watching. It’s like I’m from the city of Philadelphia. We won the World Series in 2008. We won the Super Bowl most recently in 2018. We won an NBA title in 1983. But like apart from that, it’s brutal. It’s just like it’s you just get totally amped at the prospect of victory and then totally devastated at the realization of loss. So I guess like from your vantage, how do you define or how do you pursue success? Like what does that mean given the statistical unlikelyhood of winning and given yeah like what it is that you’re putting in what it is that you’re getting out?
Sean: Wow I guess the biggest thing of not experiencing a deep low of disappointment after falling in the water when you’re inches away from getting million dollars would be, how do you identify? Like, do you, I guess, identify with your success or do you identify with your person and your calling? If I feel that I’m really identifying with my calling and I’m doing what I was supposed to be doing, physical mistakes aren’t really going to be as devastating. How much hope do you put in vanity, I guess you could say, and those are our harsh terms, but they’re true. It’s like, how much hope are you putting in things that are not eternal? And I think that would be the biggest picture thing. A little bit smaller picture than that is it’s really not about the, oh for me, it’s not about the end goal. It’s the reason I stay in it because if it was just about the end goal, I probably would have given up by now, even though I’ve come really close. But I stay in it because of the community and I stay in it because I think our Lord wants me to do this to proclaim His name in some way on national television by doing what I’m doing. And the journey along the way, meeting the people that I meet, striving with my fellow competitors, and that’s the root of competition that etymological root is to strive with to push each other to each other’s limits. And that whole process, that whole journey, is adjective for me in many ways, and it’s also a wonderful, delightful experience. And I think our Lord wants us to delight. And that’s in life. And when I find things delightful, that’s indicative that I’m on the right path. And I’m not saying things that are just pleasurable, but things that are truly life-giving. And this for me is really life-giving. So those big moments of despair from my perspective, I guess you could say that other people would perceive as to despair, I should say, are simply just small disappointments. And sometimes it takes a day or two to get over. But in the long run, it’s really not much.
Fr. Patrick: Up the two people on this call that are Dominican friars, one is very competitive and it’s not super competitive but still likes to win. So, well I’ll just give the game away. Father Gregory is very competitive. I am not very competitive but I still like to win because everyone likes to win. I don’t like to lose. When I think of environments that tend to breed the best of virtues. I think of something like the serenity of the monastery, not the intensely competitive environment of either the gym or a television show, like America Ninja Warrior. So what can you say about the virtues you’ve picked up along the way? Because it seems to me that things like humility and charity, you’ve got a compassion, wouldn’t necessarily be at the forefront of the kind of virtues that are cultivated in a ninja contest.
Sean: I’d certainly say humility is one of them ’cause that’s–
Fr. Patrick: Really! Okay, say more about this.
Sean: Oh, because even no matter how hard you train and how good you think you are, most of the time you’re knocked off your high horse. But that could cause humility or it could cause regret or frustration or blame, playing the blame game and all those sort of things. But I guess for me and from what I’ve seen, especially earlier on in the Ninja experience, especially before they started allowing the younger kids to be on the show, it was everyone versus the course. Everyone was in it together, everyone just wanted each other to win, everyone was looking at for each other’s best, and they were giving each other beta, we call it, so beta is the technique, like the approach to doing something to make sure that you’re able to overcome it. And sometimes there’s a beta hack. There’s, all these people are failing, and then one person figures it out, and then everyone else who goes after them has the beta hack, and everyone else is able to complete the, I guess that one obstacle. And there used to be all this discussion about how to do it. And it slowly started to not be as strong, it’s still there, with the younger generation coming in and the stakes being really high. And their whole life is ninja. But for us, ninja is mostly, or the older guys, ninja is more on the side. So I guess there has been a shift with the ninja culture of not being quite as virtue inspiring, but that’s still there. I think the old guard is still trying to, I guess, inculcate this in the younger guys who come by. We have prayer circles before the big competitions when there’s a lot of people there. We just, when someone’s upset or crying, especially the younger guys in gals, we take them under our wing and talk to them about what’s going on or what emotions they’re feeling. So it’s the environment that you don’t see, a lot of the behind the scenes things that are really the things that inculcate that virtue in the training on set in the interviews, a lot of the interviews are cutting the editing room floor, but yeah, I think those are the places that really develop those virtues.
Fr. Gregory: Okay, my…I’m trying to think here about what it means to witness. I was talking to a friend the other day, and she was describing how at this conference she attended these two men, they describe kind of their way of street evangelizing. There was something about their bearing, there was something about their speaking, there was something about their living, which she just found very arresting. In a sense it’s like holy smokes, I want to live the way that these men live. Because it was like fearless, it was bold, it wasn’t brash, but it was like, it was beautiful. It was wonderful. And I think that like, ideally the witnesses won who has a kind of subtlety or who has a kind of, um, yeah, delicacy to his proclamation, you know, a set of Saint Dominic that you knew he had corrected you only like days later because he was so gentle, you know, he was, he was so gentle. And maybe that’s like my idolatry for a temperament that I lack. Nevertheless, I mean, like I wear a habit, you wear a papal ninja outfit. I mean, there’s, there’s certainly something like lacking in subtlety in the way in which we make God known or in the way in which we testify to our Lord Jesus Christ. And yet we’re trying. So I’m trying to think like, like, how has, you know, over the course of the past 10 years, how is your understanding of witness or testimony matured, developed, or maybe it hasn’t, but like, how have you come to an understanding of it from your present perspective?
Sean: That’s a loaded question. I use that term a lot and I’ve actually contemplated it quite a bit. And I keep on going back to the vine of the branches. It’s John 15 or 16 or something like that. Apart from me, you could do nothing. And that’s like, I’m getting the chills. Just reliving that reading of my mind right now. But it’s so true that we really can’t witness unless we see, we can’t give testimony unless it’s truly based on a relationship that we have with our Lord. So part of the effectiveness of witnessing and inspiring others into life and holiness is how holy we are, how whole we are with respect to relationship with our Lord. And secondly, some people simply have a charism for evangelization or a charism of that’s that’s enables people to have right relationship just by being in their presence. And so we could pray for a, charisms, we could pray for that. But some people just have that gift habitually. And we can’t necessarily be jealous of that, because we have our own charisms, our own gifts of the spirit that we’re given, and we could live out and celebrate for the healing of other people. So our witness really should be based on the gifts that we have, and as well as our relationship with our Lord. But yeah, I strive to be holy myself, and I think that’s the biggest part of being able to witness effectively. I strive to be more courageous, to be more explicit about the faith in some instances, where are they capable of receiving what I want to say, or what I have the word that I received to give them that I think, or am I just putting this on, ’cause I think that’s what I have the word that I received to give them that I think or am I just putting this on because I think that’s what I should do. And the moments that I’ve overcome that instead something it’s never… I can’t recall a time right now where it’s been counterproductive. Sometimes they just like pass it off and you never know you might be planting a seed for the future, but a number of times it’s been quite effective. Like, oh wow, they actually heard what I said and it wasn’t really beating them over the head with the Bible and it was just sharing with them a pericope that comes in mind or just sharing with them what would sustain me when I was in a similar situation. And yeah, I guess you have to, you can’t give what you don’t have and the best thing that we could do to be better witnesses is to grow the holiness.
Fr. Patrick: Sean, you were talking about this development of virtues and I guess it’s true about the point of witness and creating something that someone wants, but I was thinking of what you were saying about the ninja community and how many people don’t have a community that they feel like they can lock into. You know, like, what you were speaking about the kind of old, the old guard of the show, the guys who guys, guys, and girls who have really participated in it and really know, have gotten to know each other really well. What can you say about the importance of the Ninja community and how let’s influence the way that you think about Christian community and the Christian ideas of belonging?
Sean: Wow, okay. There’s a couple of questions there. The Christian community within the Ninja community has inspired me immensely. They are very explicit about the Faith. They bring people into prayer circles who are very secular or even some who I’ve seen publicly be against things that are related to Christian faith. And seeing that witness has given me courage to do likewise. There before one of the older ninjas retired, Travis Rosen, who was in his 50, early 50s, he would be always the one to do all the prayer circles and to just gather people in that manner. And when he retired, I saw that prayer circles weren’t happening, even spite of having all those other developed Christians that were there. And some of the ones that I would have imagined would lead that. And I thought, okay, well, no one else is doing it, I’ll do it. So, give me that courage in that respect. What was the other question about the witness?
Fr. Patrick: Well, and just, you know, I think one of the powerful things that we can offer as a Christian comm- as Christians is a community. So, so many people feel overwhelmed, isolated and they feel alienated it. And I just wondered if you had any reflections on what it was like to find the kind of joy in the ninja community and what we can glean from that and model as Christians to invite people to discover that same sense of community and fraternity among us.
Sean: Yes. We all we all need a place of belonging. And I think that we all do belong in the church. There is a place of belonging. And unfortunately, some people don’t have the best experience, trying to enter the Church. And they either leave shortly after or they have a bad imagination for what the church is offering them. So inviting them into your own communities, especially small groups of disciples, people that you share with more closely, for those who are actually just looking for it, who might be listening right now, it might take some proactive steps on your part in order to experience that, but it’s certainly out there, there’s no shortage of that in young adult groups and faith groups, finding things online. I’m sure Godsplaining can connect them with some groups near them. If it’s more of like friendships that they’re looking for and they’ll find even Christian friendships at Ninja gyms, especially in the East Coast, there’s tons of Ninjas, the whole east coast. The west coast is not as many, so if you’re in the west coast, come to Traverse Fitness, you can find our community in the Richmond area in California. Yeah, we’re very welcoming. The whole Ninja community is very welcoming. Even the younger guys, even though they’re a little more competitive, they always want to bring people into it, and I guess evangelize in that manner. But what I’ve also seen in my work with the Lay Mission Project is that that’s the glue that holds the whole formation together. There’s all sorts of formations or partial formations out there. And the thing that makes what we do unique is that we have such a huge emphasis on small group, on circles of disciples, as well as meeting together in person twice a year to experience big church together. And it’s a unique experience that “…where two or more are gathered in My Name, I’m in their midst…” and that’s what they experience. They experience church. Father Michael Sweeney, my collaborator in the mission here, says that you really haven’t fully experienced church until you discern in the spirit with others, where you bring others, your concerns, your thoughts, you share with them what you see, and you discern how to take action together in the world, or yourself in the world, but through the witness correction, affirmation, encouragement of the Christian community itself. I thought that was maybe a little much, a little hard when I first heard that. Then seeing that actually take place to how people haven’t experienced this before is something that was just mind blowing to me. And I’m beginning to see how true that really is that you don’t really experience church fully until you’ve experienced it in community in a discernment of living and witnessing the thing.
Fr. Gregory: Well, in the few minutes that we have left, maybe just if you could speak a little bit to the Lay Mission Project, you’ve mentioned now this notion of discipleship. You’ve mentioned this notion of charism. You’ve mentioned this notion of discernment. You’ve mentioned this notion of community. And you’ve mentioned the notion of like kind of unity and diversity. So it seems like we have a lot of the pieces which are integral to that formation which Father Michael Sweeney and you and those with whom you collaborate provide, but if you could just detail it a little more explicitly.
Sean: Sure, it’s a robust ministry that we have that’s a formation, not just education, but it’s a formation, so it’s systematic, it’s community based, it’s mission driven, and I think the fourth one that Fr. Michael always says, but it’s systematic. So one thing follows another. So you dive into the tradition of the Faith in communities and small groups, but the content is delivered online. So there’s online courses that you take with suggested readings and reflections, journal entries, prayers, lectio divinas, to support your spiritual life, although it’s the other one, the atmosphere of spiritual formation too. So to support the spiritual life, and then every two weeks or so on average during the academic year, you get together in a small group of between 8 to 12 to other disciples to discuss its application in the world. And again, this is the thing that the glue that holds it all together. This is the thing that in the very beginning, people are thinking, “Oh, it’s the three-year process. That’s a huge commitment.” And then after about two or three weeks, after they meet once or maybe when they meet twice, they start to think, “Oh, no, what are we going to do after three years?” They get nervous about it because they start to grow really close with this group and they don’t want it to be over. And we started this back in 2016 and we’ve gone through three cycles of this so far, or we’re in our third cycle right now. And people are still meeting that are in their original groups. So we’re in the middle of an expansion process right now where we’re thinking of how to repackage this in a way to expand beyond the three diocese that we’re in right now and to offer this more widely. So be on the look out for that one. And two, what we’re trying to do is develop other content so that people can be on boarded onto this and have lower commitment level of not having to jump into a three-year formation. So perhaps podcasts and other courses that are free that don’t require the community dynamic of it, but you get a taste of what the educational components are like so you can dive into the tradition of the church and that matter. And also these sort of resources that we develop could be supportive of those who have finished it or finished what we would consider at that point the initial formation and continue to dive into and discern together the tradition of the church as it applies to their daily life. So in this process there’s a one retreat per year, one workshop a year, one of them they learned about the local diocese, the other two they learned about, uh, charism discernment, kind of like the Catherine of Siena Institute’s called the, um, Called and Gifted Process, um, and they learned how to accompany one another and identify thresholds of, uh, conversion that they’re, that the people are going through that they’re accompanying, so they could effectively evangelize them and bring them into the, into the fold. So that’s what it looks like as a whole and that’s what, that’s our, that’s our goal. We’re going to be expanding, uh, nationwide, hopefully in the next three years or so.
Fr. Gregory: Boom. If folks want to find out more about you or the Lay Mission Project, where should they look?
Sean: Lay Mission Project would be laymission.net. Some of the stuff up there is a little outdated as we are now going to be actually currently in the process of starting a 501c3 non-profit. So we’re instituting apart from the Western Dominican province but we’re still being in collaboration with them, with the studio and with the personnel and those sort of things. So some of that information is a little outdated, but the formation of the curriculum is up there. Look at our, the about page has a magazine that you can look through all the details. Visually, you could see the curriculum, you could see the theology behind what we teach. So laymission.net. And I guess the best way to get either in contact with me or learn more about what I do as the people in the social media. So, #papalninja.
Fr. Gregory: Boom. And if folks want to watch a season of American Ninja Warrior, which tells forth your prowess in most excellent fashion, which seasons are they watch?
Sean: I guess my first season was season eight. I did okay, but my breakout season was season nine. So that’s probably a good one to do. Also, after that was season, forget if it was 10 or 11 that I did really well as well. But also watch this season. When is the air date of this Godsplaining?
Fr. Gregory: This Godsplaining episode might come out in the middle of October?
Sean: Okay, so by then you’ll already see how I did this year.
Fr. Gregory: Okay, but we’re not going to potentially, what’s the word that I’m looking for, subvert your non-disclosure agreement by tempting you any further. But folks, let’s just say that it’s gonna be great. I have no idea what it’s gonna be. But it’s gonna be great. (laughs) Well, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it. And yeah, God’s blessing on you on your work and on the Lay Mission Project. Thank you very much. All right, turn into the listener. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of Godsplaining. If you haven’t yet, subscribe on YouTube or your podcast app. Unless you have determined that Godsplaining is no longer helpful for your spiritual growth Then promptly one, blame Father Patrick again and two unsubscribe. And then if you find in your heart of hearts that it’s still worthwhile to like to share all the records of things, we appreciate that but if not, no worse. All right folks, know of our prayers for you. Please pray for us and we’ll look forward to chatting with you next time on Godsplaining.