Marriage, Family & Subordination w/ Mary Stanford | Fr. Gregory Pine & Fr. Patrick Briscoe
March 17, 2025
This transcription was generated using AI technology. Please note that there may be errors or inconsistencies.
00:00:10:14 – 00:00:17:15
Speaker 1
This is Father Patrick Briscoe, and.
00:00:17:15 – 00:00:18:18
Speaker 2
This is Father Gregory Pine.
00:00:18:18 – 00:00:36:00
Speaker 1
Welcome to Godsplaining and thanks to all who support us. If you enjoy the show, please consider making a monthly donation to us on Patreon. Be sure to like and subscribe to Godsplaining wherever you listen to your podcasts. Friends, Father Gregory and I are here today in studio with a very special guest. We’re so happy to welcome Mary Stanford.
00:00:36:00 – 00:00:36:18
Speaker 1
Mary, welcome.
00:00:36:23 – 00:00:38:13
Speaker 3
Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:38:15 – 00:00:54:20
Speaker 1
Mary is the author of a fabulous book, The Obedience Paradox, which you may or may not have heard of. I assure you, after this episode, you’re going to want to read her book because there are all kinds of hot topics associated with it, which we’re about to get into. But just so you can really get to know Mary.
00:00:54:21 – 00:01:14:11
Speaker 1
Mary is coming back to the House of Studies, and it’s kind of a homecoming for her because she did a degree with the Pontifical University of John Paul. The second I just butchered the name. It happens to institute, as you like, to call marriage and family. Yeah, it’s kind of big long name, though, but originally that was housed here at the Dominican House of Studies.
00:01:14:12 – 00:01:27:06
Speaker 1
So, Mary, we’re happy to have you back home, as it were, with all of us believers. But for friends who don’t know your project, who don’t know your name, who don’t know your book, who are you? Can you introduce yourself to us?
00:01:27:11 – 00:01:49:21
Speaker 3
Q I am Mary Stanford. I’ve number one, having written a book on marriage, I should tell you right now that you have to be married to talk about marriage. But I’ve been married for it’ll be 25 years this year and I’ve got seven children, so I’ve got kids and all, you know, adult children, male children, littles in my spare time, I don’t know if I really have spare time.
00:01:49:21 – 00:01:53:12
Speaker 3
Maybe time I should be spending, cleaning or something like that. I do teach.
00:01:53:12 – 00:02:00:05
Speaker 1
Let’s get it started. Where you started? Yes. Do I make a kitchen joke now or later?
00:02:00:07 – 00:02:22:06
Speaker 3
I figure I’ll always find some sort of excuse to avoid those things. But I do teach as an adjunct at Christendom College in their theology department. For years I taught at night. I taught a course, and I still do. John Paul’s Theology of the Body, which I again was first acquainted with here when in the Dominican house when I was at the institute.
00:02:22:07 – 00:02:47:02
Speaker 3
But over time, I also teach general core theology courses as well. And really, after teaching and giving a lot of talks, a lot of talks and writing a few articles over 20 years or so, somehow I became called to write this book, tackling what did you see was Hot button. It’s something I called it up there.
00:02:47:04 – 00:02:49:21
Speaker 2
I heard a hot topic. Hot button is now Hello Hot take.
00:02:49:23 – 00:02:52:06
Speaker 1
I take home.
00:02:52:07 – 00:03:16:17
Speaker 3
This on this crazy topic of really what is the meaning of obedience or submission in marriage. Obviously talking about in particular the ideas of wives being called to submit to their husbands. What does that mean? What does it look like? How does it jive with other teachings of our Catholic faith and what our, you know, misunderstandings of it?
00:03:16:17 – 00:03:36:11
Speaker 3
So just sort of out of my own desire and over time a desire, people would ask me to give talks on this topic, and I’m really meditating on it and trying to live it. I think, you know, it’s a sort of a combination of lived experience, theology, philosophy, teaching, and a lot of conversations with with audience people from talks and things really helped.
00:03:36:11 – 00:03:41:16
Speaker 3
And this is the fruit of that. So I hope it’s something that can help the talk for others.
00:03:41:18 – 00:04:13:09
Speaker 2
Okay, so let’s paint the scene in the ambient culture you have people with on the one hand decided opinions or views of a feminist sort, whether that’s first, second or third wave or some gentle blend of the three. And then you have folks who see that and specifically in the wake of the sexual revolution, like the devastation that that has visited upon marriage, I mean, like upon marriages and upon women in particular, and have swung in the other direction.
00:04:13:11 – 00:04:46:21
Speaker 2
So we see like the kind of trad wife movement. But then within the church specifically, not that the church is just a microcosm of the microcosmic world, but you see a particular reception or engagement with what we see going on in the culture. And so you have like a Catholic appropriation of feminism or like Catholic feminism of a certain sort, and then you have, yeah, what would probably best be classified as a return to a kind of more traditional understanding as to what constitutes differentiated gender roles or like complementary living within the setting of the sacrament of marriage.
00:04:46:23 – 00:05:06:08
Speaker 2
Okay, so like against that background, if that is a somewhat accurate portrayal of what’s at stake, like, how helpful do you think it is to kind of engage with the history or how helpful do you think it is to kind of situate oneself within a particular camp or to identify with a particular position?
00:05:06:10 – 00:05:36:15
Speaker 3
I think the safest route is always look at the traditional teaching of the church, look at the magisterial teaching and look at Scripture. And for me certainly were always going to be in a particular concrete place in time. There’s going to be cultural trends, there’s going to be all sorts of things going on. But there has to be something in a Christian principle that stands the test of time and can be embodied despite the fact that cultures change.
00:05:36:19 – 00:06:05:05
Speaker 3
And so what I really tried to look at in my book is even though home situations, working situations, the entire world, the situation of women is is very different than it was centuries ago. But if this is a perennial teaching of the church, there has to be something about this dynamic of headship and submission that is supposed to be an image of the relationship between Christ and the church.
00:06:05:11 – 00:06:35:16
Speaker 3
There has to be something that can be present in all of those times, and I think that that’s what we need to look for because things are definitely going to look a little bit different on the outside. And I think that’s what some of these different views are about. You know, women, I want to say traditionally we’re in the home, but again, before the industrial revolution, everybody was at home, you know, so that really has been sometimes a false sense of what that means for the woman to be at home.
00:06:35:18 – 00:07:09:07
Speaker 3
But when it comes to a woman having special gifts that capacitate her for personal relationships and nurture, that’s never going to change. Right. And so how a woman employs those gifts for the good of the family is very important to take into consideration. But what I try to explore in this book is what does a dynamic of headship and submission look like in a way that doesn’t violate the Christian teaching, that we’re each leaving the image of God and that, you know, there in Christ there’s no slave or free, there’s no male or female.
00:07:09:07 – 00:07:42:23
Speaker 3
Right. How does it sort of how is it consistent with that? But also that doesn’t do away with the fact that I think there’s it’s suggested that a husband has a unique contribution that he gives to the unity of the family, and a wife has a unique and irreplaceable contribution. So trying to use the right language, I think to talk about this dynamic without alienating everybody and also not saying it’s not just as simple as some people make it out to be, but at the same time, the principle itself has all sorts of scriptural support.
00:07:42:23 – 00:07:54:12
Speaker 3
So that’s sort of what I tried to do, is to look at the actual underlying principle of what is called for with headship and submission.
00:07:54:14 – 00:08:10:15
Speaker 1
Why do you think this conversation is so important today, apart from just resolving a theological matter? I mean, this this for Dominicans is very pressing. We want to we want to get the theology correct. We want to get the philosophy correct. It’s one of the reasons why we can’t sleep at night, because we haven’t solved all of the problems.
00:08:10:15 – 00:08:40:20
Speaker 1
There are the reasons we can’t sleep at night, but the some some questions seem to be more urgent because we’re seeing resonance of those questions in the culture. And this to me seems to be one of them. So I wonder if you might say a few words about places you’re seeing discourse about this question and the meaning of obedience within marriage and reasons why you think studying and taking seriously the Church’s understanding of obedience in marriage matters, why that matters so much?
00:08:40:22 – 00:08:54:23
Speaker 3
Yes. Because when I first started writing this book, there are so many problems going on in the world. I think some people were a bit aghast, like, why would you take on this issue of all things when there’s so many other areas to be worked upon? You could.
00:08:54:23 – 00:08:56:11
Speaker 1
Like cure cancer or something.
00:08:56:13 – 00:08:56:20
Speaker 3
Like this.
00:08:56:20 – 00:08:59:03
Speaker 1
Other things broker peace in the Middle East.
00:08:59:05 – 00:09:27:01
Speaker 3
But when you look at so many of of the cultural problems, so many of them stem from the family, right? The family is being, you know, pulled apart in all directions. And when you look at the foundation of the family, you have to look at marriage. Right. And when you look at the marriage statistics, it’s insane. So I realize this is actually primarily about a principle of unity.
00:09:27:03 – 00:09:53:02
Speaker 3
There. If the family is going to be healthy, the foundation of the family marriage, that principle of oneness has to be healthy. And I think people to recognize this, whether they’re religious or not. And so for so many years now, so many decades, we’ve been told that men and women are basically interchangeable. Neither one offers anything unique to the other.
00:09:53:02 – 00:10:21:01
Speaker 3
Everybody can do everything the other can do, and the idea, the notion of any sort of dependance within a relationship is sort of offensive. So words like submit to submit or to obey, they they sound to our ears like something that is maybe subhuman. Sub personal. So those type of things have just been sort of poison words for so long.
00:10:21:01 – 00:10:48:11
Speaker 3
Toxic, I think I maybe refer to them as, but because things are have reached such a state with regard to relationships and the family, I think suddenly there has been this shift even in the secular culture, to the idea that, you know, maybe we’re not the same. And so this idea of being able to talk about differences between men and women, on the one hand I think is probably a healthy sign.
00:10:48:16 – 00:10:55:19
Speaker 3
Maybe there is or not. Just the differences aren’t just skin deep, so to speak, but that we see.
00:10:55:21 – 00:10:58:08
Speaker 1
Certainly in response to the transgender movement.
00:10:58:10 – 00:11:24:22
Speaker 3
Yes. And I think you’re right, the transgender movement for sure has brought this into the conversation. And so it is good that people are talking about the possibility of difference and the possibility of unique contributions. However, like any type of reaction, it is possible to say, yes, men and women are different, but then to get it wrong on how we’re different or to get it wrong on what we do with those differences right.
00:11:25:00 – 00:11:38:03
Speaker 3
I think one term that became very popular in the secular world the last decade or so is this term toxic masculinity, which sometimes when you read a list of the things that people consider toxic, not all of the things, I think that’s a good.
00:11:38:03 – 00:11:38:14
Speaker 1
Place to.
00:11:38:15 – 00:12:12:02
Speaker 3
Mentally sound like a good guy, you know. But of course, as Edith Stein, Saint Teresa Benedict of the Cross, so, so beautifully articulates. Any time we talk about certain gifts or abilities or capacities that men have or that women have, they each, because of sin, have their toxic, so to speak, counterparts. Right? They each have their their warped versions that do create really icky, toxic dynamic between men and women.
00:12:12:02 – 00:12:37:12
Speaker 3
And so one is like so it’s good to be able to say, oh, there can be some things that are toxic because of sin, but they’re actually warped versions of something good. But if that’s true for men, it’s absolutely true for women. So we need to be able to talk about both and we need to be able to talk about ways in which men specifically and women specifically can work on certain areas of their natural gifts that become warped.
00:12:37:14 – 00:13:08:18
Speaker 3
So that we can have a beautiful life giving dynamics. So it’s should not be a blame game. So no secular approach that tries to acknowledge the differences that I’ve seen so far doesn’t end up blaming one or the other. It’s it’s sort of if there is this sort of, I guess, secular movement that men are sort of men have sort of had it with being told that they’re toxic and that they are a problem.
00:13:08:18 – 00:13:31:21
Speaker 3
And the solution seems to be go ahead and assert yourselves and lean in to some of those things which maybe aren’t virtuous. That shouldn’t be the response. So while it’s good that the culture at large is talking about it, I think in many ways certain secular approaches to this topic in particular, sometimes referred to as the Treadway movement, which again is a very broad term.
00:13:31:23 – 00:13:42:13
Speaker 3
I’ve seen some things that seem refreshing and other things that seem a bit disturbing because I don’t think that they’re actually getting to the heart of the problem, but at least they’re talking about differences.
00:13:42:15 – 00:14:09:08
Speaker 2
Okay, So, um, I think that a lot of folks are probably interfacing with fallen forms of virtuous tendencies or natural inclinations. So like, I’m thinking, for instance, of Genesis two and three, whereby a certain dominion dominion is imparted to the man or commanded to his practice. But what we see, in fact, in this post fall in dispensation is a kind of domination.
00:14:09:10 – 00:14:29:12
Speaker 2
And so we’re often sorting out between the experience of our fallen humanity and then the grandeur of an original humanity or redeemed humanity. So then like, how do you how do you lead into a principled inquiry or an inquiry into principles, given that we’re working our way through a kind of fallen filter?
00:14:29:14 – 00:14:52:23
Speaker 3
Yes, I think for me it is very important to look at the Genesis creation texts. When John Paul, the second, was writing his theology of the Body, he was always saying, You know, our Lord himself, right? When our Lord was talking to the Pharisees about the legitimacy of divorce rate, he answered them with what they said. Moses allowed it, and he said, Well, yeah, but in the beginning it was not.
00:14:52:23 – 00:15:15:09
Speaker 3
So Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of your hearts. But our Lord himself points to Genesis. He points to a time before man fell into sin. So in some sense it’s a time that we can’t quite relate to experientially, but it’s there for a reason, right? We’re supposed to see how it was designed and that needs to be sort of the blueprint that we can hold ourselves up to.
00:15:15:09 – 00:15:38:14
Speaker 3
It’s sort of like a doctor. Like if a doctor is going to fix a broken leg, he does need to have a sense of what a healthy leg looks like or he can’t repair it properly or he can’t assume that that’s the healthy version of the leg unless he has in his mind an idea. So in Genesis, there’s just, you know, two images that I’m thinking of in particular.
00:15:38:15 – 00:16:03:08
Speaker 3
Number one, when Adam is seeking for a suitable companion, right? God doesn’t just immediately present him with the woman. He presents them with each and every animal creature, which we do share some things in common with. Right. But in that process of Adam observing the animals, he does not conclude that one of them is a fit companion. Right?
00:16:03:10 – 00:16:30:13
Speaker 3
So then God puts them to sleep, presents him with the woman. And what I love about Adam’s response to Eve is here. Here you are seeing the first beautiful, perfect woman right presented to you. We don’t see Adam sort of focusing on her difference initially, right? The words out of his mouth are at last is bone of my bones.
00:16:30:16 – 00:17:01:09
Speaker 3
Flesh of my flesh. Those words are pair. To paraphrase, he’s saying, That’s it. At last. That’s what I am. That’s what. And he’s seeing a sameness, right? He is seeing a fellow spiritual being. He’s seeing a fellow person. And it is absolutely our sameness or likeness that makes a union between man and woman desirable. It’s the difference that makes it possible, however so.
00:17:01:14 – 00:17:26:23
Speaker 3
Well, I want to talk a lot about difference. The foundational principle is sameness and dignity. And in our spiritual capacity. And then the other image that we get, which is also very mysterious to us, is and the man and the woman looked upon one another and they were naked and we’re not ashamed. That’s another thing that, again, is sort of out of our experience as fallen beings, right?
00:17:27:00 – 00:17:31:17
Speaker 3
What does that mean? They didn’t know they were naked. You know, any of.
00:17:31:17 – 00:17:32:16
Speaker 1
Us wear layers.
00:17:32:21 – 00:17:33:08
Speaker 3
Right? A lot.
00:17:33:08 – 00:17:36:17
Speaker 1
Of layers upon layers, just to be sure that.
00:17:36:19 – 00:18:02:07
Speaker 3
We just, you know, want to make sure. Oh, but the way that again, again, I use a lot of Paul, too. He says being naked right there, they’re holding nothing back. And so this image of being naked one before the other without shame is an image of a total giving to the other. Right. Nothing is being held back and a total receiving of the other.
00:18:02:09 – 00:18:15:10
Speaker 3
As a matter of fact, I like to put it this way that in that moment I wouldn’t even say that Adam saw Eve’s body.
00:18:15:12 – 00:18:16:02
Speaker 1
He just.
00:18:16:04 – 00:18:43:00
Speaker 3
He saw Eve, right? Her body, her physical dimension, perfectly presented, perfectly represented, and symbolized her interior, spiritual dimension. And so in this beautiful gaze, this gaze of one at the other, we see an image of what I’d like to say is a perfect gift, dynamic that is a perfect offering and receiving between the two. And that that is a spiritual union, right?
00:18:43:00 – 00:19:08:03
Speaker 3
It’s a physical union. But again, our physical dimension makes present our spiritual dimension. And so really the union between Adam and Eve is a personal one, therefore it’s a spiritual one. So with those two things in mind, yes. Then man, man fell right in. We do see that with the fall of man, their fallen tendencies are not identical.
00:19:08:05 – 00:19:36:16
Speaker 3
Right? You see these specific want to say punishments, but at the same time, I also like to say consequences. The consequences. Right. All right. Eve and her unique province of bearing babies will bear children in pain. Right. And Adam in his unique province, I say women also work. Right. But but man’s physique is characterized by size and strength.
00:19:36:16 – 00:20:08:03
Speaker 3
His toil and labor is going to be accompanied by resistance and sweat and pain and all those icky things. Right. But what about their relationship? Right? What is God say? He says to her, Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. We tend to focus on the one, right? Mm hmm. It sounded like they were in this beautiful gift dynamic of equality and, you know, mutual sameness and dignity.
00:20:08:05 – 00:20:33:11
Speaker 3
And now all of a sudden, there’s this this term, this kind of ruling over, which is similar to what was described as his relationship over the the natural world. Right. And so is this you know, what does this mean? Does it mean woman is suddenly lower or a victim? Is this the same thing? Is what Saint Paul will be referring to when he says wives submit to your husbands?
00:20:33:13 – 00:21:09:07
Speaker 3
I would argue no. But there is a tendency for him to no longer see her as that spiritual, physical, whole, a tendency in him to see her as less, to see her maybe as an object. But what about her desire? Is there anything wrong? Is anything fallen about the desire that she has? And again, when you look at the distinct differences between men and women, you see a woman, her very body is oriented toward persons, toward the receptivity of persons.
00:21:09:09 – 00:21:44:08
Speaker 3
Women are person oriented. We’re very focused on fulfilling ourselves and our happiness through relationships. A woman’s desire for a relationship is very strong, and it is so strong that sometimes she is willing to be objectified. I’d say if Adam’s greatest challenge is tending to at times in his fallen, to see her as an object, I think a woman’s greatest challenge is at times not seeing ourselves as more than an object.
00:21:44:10 – 00:21:48:23
Speaker 3
And because we want it, we want relationships, we want love.
00:21:49:01 – 00:22:08:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, this is this is good. It’s helpful because it leads to the follow up that I wanted to ask, because you’ve been building basically the argument of difference and complementarity from Genesis and talking a little a little bit about the, the punishments that men and women face, that you gave us the word consequences of the men and women face after the fall.
00:22:08:02 – 00:22:42:15
Speaker 1
So in in the the world that we’re living in. His father Gregory pointed out, we’re living in between what ought to be and what was once we’re we’re here in the fallen state and in that in that place as we begin to to think what what are the differences between men and women, that is oftentimes a very triggering conversation for people because you begin to you begin to describe, well, men and women are X, men are X, and and then immediately someone say, you say, well, women are nurturing.
00:22:42:21 – 00:23:06:12
Speaker 1
And someone says, well, my mother was not at all. And my father was always more nurturing than my mother. And you say, well, okay, so. So it could be it could be people can feel very threatened when you begin to introduce generalizations. But that’s not even the most helpful when you begin to introduce categories into and distinctions in among the differences between men and women.
00:23:06:12 – 00:23:20:07
Speaker 1
So I wonder if if you could begin to navigate us through that, because I think it leads it leads us that gives us some of the foundation we need to really understand questions that are downstream that we want to get to about headship and about obedience and so forth.
00:23:20:09 – 00:23:46:04
Speaker 3
Yes, And you’re absolutely right. When we do talk about these things, it is it’s dangerous to make generalizations. But what I’d like to do is, is maybe put this out there, that there is there does seem to be a distinct way in which men tend to relate to their bodies in a way that women tend to relate to their bodies.
00:23:46:05 – 00:24:14:08
Speaker 3
And this affects their sense of identity and it affects the way they experience love. So I mentioned a woman a few moments ago, right? Physically speaking, her body is oriented toward a kind of receptivity to the person. Right? It is technically uniquely her, right. It’s uniquely capable of receiving and nurturing a person within itself. That’s just on the physical level.
00:24:14:08 – 00:24:39:13
Speaker 3
Right. A man’s body is not distinguished in that way. A man’s body doesn’t have that capacity. A man’s body is distinguished by size and strength. Right. For a certain ability for work, work outside of himself. Right where a woman’s is designed for something, interior that happens within her. A man’s is designed for something exterior to act on the world.
00:24:39:14 – 00:25:10:00
Speaker 3
Because of those distinctions, we do notice a woman’s body is constantly reminding her that she’s female. It it’s it’s in such a way that Edith Stein says women feel so closely connected to their body that the eye that they tend to identify with it. They think this right here, my body, this is me. It’s not all of me, but it but it’s me.
00:25:10:02 – 00:25:30:21
Speaker 3
Whereas a man, his body is not always reminding him he’s a man. The way that a man tends to, I’m going to say, prove it right. Men seem more inclined, even when they’re little boys, to sort of prove their manhood. They somehow have to show it. They have to do something. They accomplish something with their body through their body.
00:25:31:03 – 00:25:58:21
Speaker 3
Right. Whether it’s throwing a touchdown or building something or hunting a deer or rape when men do something with their body and that thing that they do is recognized and noted and appreciated, then they feel affirmed. Somehow. Men tend to identify more with what they do than with their body. They tend to experience their body as more of an instrument.
00:25:58:22 – 00:26:18:17
Speaker 3
Now, I think the truth is that the body is both body is instrumental characteristics. It’s not all of me, and I certainly do things with my body right. But my body is also a very important part of my identity. Right? When I see when Adam saw a body, he saw a person. Right? When we see a body, we’re supposed to recognize a person.
00:26:18:19 – 00:26:45:12
Speaker 3
Now, I think we can see that women are good at that women. We see a body. We see a person in the pro-life movement again and again. The push for having sonograms, for women that might have been abortion minded is the reasoning behind that is when women see a living body, we tend to see a person. It’s harder to think of that baby as just an object or a lump of tissue.
00:26:45:14 – 00:27:04:18
Speaker 3
A living body does something to a woman. We see a body, we see a person. Men struggle with that a little bit more. On the other hand, there’s you know, we can see there’s parallels for both sides, right? My body isn’t just an object. If a man perceives his own body as an object, he can also perceive mine as an object.
00:27:04:18 – 00:27:25:11
Speaker 3
Right. And that’s dangerous. Just as a woman feeling such a close connection to her body is quite dangerous. Right? It can. I can think I’m just my body. I can fall into body image issues, right? If my body is not perfect, I’m not perfect. But both of these dimensions on the positive side, number one, are very healthy and testify to the sort of the truth about the body.
00:27:25:12 – 00:27:56:14
Speaker 3
But they affect the way in which men and women experience love. A man feels loved and affirmed when what he does is well received, right when he does something in that thing that he does is well-received, he actually feels affirmed. For a woman, it’s not quite that way. A woman, usually when she wants to, when she wants someone to show that he loves her.
00:27:56:14 – 00:28:18:17
Speaker 3
Right. When I love my husband and I know that he loves me, I crave gifts. Right. We tend to seek signs of that love, you know, flowers, chocolates, kind words. Right? We crave love in the form of a gift, which means we want to receive just as our bodies are designed to receive. We feel loved when something is offered to us.
00:28:18:19 – 00:28:48:20
Speaker 3
Men feel loved when what they offer is well received. I mean, I can give my husband a million gifts and I can do a thousand things for him. I do right as a mother and a wife. I do. I do a lot for my husband and I should. And that’s good. And he’s thankful. But if I am doing many things for my husband, but not appreciating and receiving, well what he does for me, there will not be unity in our marriage because he won’t feel loved.
00:28:48:22 – 00:29:16:17
Speaker 3
So the different body structures that we have reflect, I think, a different a distinct sense of identity and a distinct way of receiving affirmation. So because of that, I think that sort of sets up a little bit for what’s actually going on in a dynamic of headship and submission that we actually receive and crave love in in different ways.
00:29:16:19 – 00:29:40:02
Speaker 3
And I think Saint Paul at the end of the whole Ephesians five thing, he sort of repeats himself, but he says it in a little different way. He says, So husbands love your wives and wives respect your husbands. He doesn’t you almost feel like he’s going to say husbands love your wives, and wives love your husbands because his wives respect your husbands.
00:29:40:04 – 00:30:06:18
Speaker 3
Kind of like, Oh, now we’re supposed to love our husbands. But I think for a man, respect is a synonym for appreciation, right? When a guy gets respect, it means what he did or what he said, what he accomplished. It was appreciated. It was noted. Right. Men crave that. That’s a synonym for love, right? Receptive love when you are appreciated, it means you’re received well.
00:30:06:20 – 00:30:26:07
Speaker 3
That’s what it means to receive. So there’s something about the quality of a woman’s relationship to her husband that if it’s going to affirm him and really create that union, it is going to be receptive and quality because that is what makes him feel affirmed.
00:30:26:09 – 00:30:56:20
Speaker 2
Okay, so here we go. Follow up on Ephesians five. You have this extended passage, passage from like Ephesians 521 through 533, describing this as it begins mutual subordination, be subordinate to each other out of love for Christ, and then different created. So clearly one thing cannot be subject to or subordinate to another thing in the same way that that other thing is subject to or subordinate to the first because you’d have a strange circularity.
00:30:56:22 – 00:31:26:00
Speaker 2
So there has to be differentiation in the manner of a woman’s subordination to her husband and of husband’s quasi subordination to his wife. And I think it’s once once you get into that, once we hear differentiation, then people start to get nervous. I think most people by disposition just prefer a bland equality attributed. Yes, somewhat blasé Lee as a way by which to avoid that confrontation.
00:31:26:01 – 00:31:47:19
Speaker 2
Because when we hear subordinate to, we hear superiority and inferiority. So to this point, you’ve kind of set up the argument that there is unequal dignity on the basis of a common nature, right? So we have a spiritual nature capable of knowing and loving. We share, all of us alike in that radically we might have certain hindrances or obstacles to the expression of those powers.
00:31:47:19 – 00:32:04:22
Speaker 2
Nevertheless, there’s a kind of equality and dignity. But we are noting at this stage of the game or observing some modicum of differentiation. So how do you build out that picture? How do you help people to swallow the pill of their relative inferiority or superior already depending upon?
00:32:05:00 – 00:32:30:15
Speaker 3
Yes. Well, I think, number one, when we look at divisions five, right. And Saint Paul connects us to the analogy of the relationship between Christ and his church. Okay. So when he says that husbands. Right, how are they to relate to their wives? You’re head of the wife as Christ, as head of the church. Well, how was Christ?
00:32:30:15 – 00:32:59:21
Speaker 3
Head of the church, Right. He lays down his life for her. Right? So we see that. Oh, like Christ, then headship. That means a wife’s husband’s relationship to his wife is marked by a sacrificial guest. Right? An offering. It is generative, it is generous. Okay, so we see that. Okay, number one, that usually, you know, usually when there’s a homily on this, if a priest dares to do the homily on this.
00:32:59:21 – 00:33:29:07
Speaker 3
Right. It’s murky. I’ve had. Yeah. Anyway, they’ll usually focus on that, which is nice, right? Headship doesn’t mean you are some sort of tyrant. It’s expressed through generosity and sacrifice. Great. That should allay fears. Right. But if it is if headship is marked by a generous offering, then you can’t have a gift without a receptivity. Right? There has to be a reception.
00:33:29:09 – 00:33:54:11
Speaker 3
So if headship means offering and sacrifice and giving, then submission or obedience has to, before all else, signify a way of receiving those deeds. So number one, receiving means free to right? There’s no such thing. When you think about a gift in the elements of a gift. A gift is not a gift if it’s not freely offered, right?
00:33:54:11 – 00:34:20:13
Speaker 3
If it’s forced or demanded or bribed or extorted, that’s not a gift. Right. But on the receiving end to truly receive also involves freedom, right? Can someone actually force a gift on someone? I think even to try to imagine It is strange. That’s not a gift right? A free receiving means a willing acceptance, a grateful acceptance. I mean, look at the word grateful, right?
00:34:20:15 – 00:35:00:13
Speaker 3
The route is gratis. That means free read. So it’s to to freely receive. Think about what’s going on in a gift. The person who offers the gift says, I want. I want this for you. Right? I will. This thing for you right? The receiver. If the receiver is going to receive right says okay, I want what you want for me, it’s a union of wills which is marked by freedom on both sides.
00:35:00:13 – 00:35:22:10
Speaker 3
I call it a meeting of two freedoms. Right. And you know, it takes two to tango, but you cannot have a gift dynamic. You cannot have spiritual union without a free offering and a free receiving. It’s well, the interaction of those two freedoms. And so on one level, it can describing it that way can sort of allay fears.
00:35:22:10 – 00:35:45:01
Speaker 3
Okay, he’s supposed to be generous and oh, all I have to do is sit around and receive. Oh, sounds easy. Sounds fun. What? You know. Oh, I guess it’s nothing to be feared. Well, actually, it can be very agonizing. It can be very challenging to be a receiver. But being a receiver comes with a tremendous amount of power.
00:35:45:03 – 00:36:16:18
Speaker 3
And actually, I. I wanted as a subtitle for my book to possibly even be the power of receptivity, because it’s really that it is within the receiver’s power to create the spiritual union through a free reception, right? Or to reject, to refuse when you refuse a gift, right? When a person offers something and it’s refused, the giver opens.
00:36:16:18 – 00:36:44:10
Speaker 3
The giver, the giver is very vulnerable, right? To be wounded, to be hurt. When you think about men, right, if men identify very much with their work and with what they do, with what they offer, when that thing is criticized, when that thing is rejected, mocked, whatever, whatever. Right. I think I don’t think women always appreciate how a man experiences rejection, rejection, failure.
00:36:44:11 – 00:37:06:05
Speaker 3
It cuts men to the core because it’s something that they have actually identified with. It’s a little bit different. Women tend to make a distinction between who they are and what they do as well. This is me and that’s what I do. You can’t separate them too far, I get. But we do tend to emphasize that I think that’s shown by Mother Love.
00:37:06:07 – 00:37:21:17
Speaker 3
But you know what I mean by mother love. No. Well, the worst form of mother love is when someone who’s on death row and, you know, he did all the crimes in the mom is sitting there in the front row going, That’s my baby. I love me. I love you. My right. That’s that’s like the worst form, right?
00:37:21:19 – 00:37:43:08
Speaker 3
But mother love is the love that picks up the kid and hugs him and picks him up off his feet again when he’s fail. Right. It’s the kind of thing that says, I love you for you, it doesn’t matter what you did or how you failed. Right. And we all we all need that. Right. But then there’s that other dimension that says you are what you do right, emphasizing what you do.
00:37:43:10 – 00:38:09:06
Speaker 3
And so really the masculine and the feminine approaches both, I think, bring tremendous things that each one of us needs. I think that’s why we are designed to have a mom and a dad. Right. But nonetheless, when it comes to the power of receptivity, wives is called to submit, call to receive what he is offering. Recognize we have a tremendous power.
00:38:09:06 – 00:38:29:06
Speaker 3
It’s not easy, but when we realize what we’re actually doing, when we receive well, what our husband does for us and how that can inspire him, that’s something it’s powerful because it brings about union. I had the privilege last spring. I was going to give a talk about my book and the organizers. It was sort of a retreat for couples.
00:38:29:08 – 00:38:53:00
Speaker 3
They decided it was easier for babysitting purposes to have me come and give a talk to the husbands one night and to the wives the next morning. I was talking about those ideas in a room full of full of husbands, and I was a little nervous. And when they talked about this, everybody’s head not of they said, yes, we do identify with what we do.
00:38:53:01 – 00:39:16:02
Speaker 3
And when she appreciates what I do, this one man said that type of loving feedback that appreciation, he said, it fills my sails. It fills my sails, and it makes me feel like I can take on the world. I can take on the next challenge. I want to keep on giving. I want to keep on giving, right? Because that’s many times women come to me and say, Oh, he doesn’t do enough.
00:39:16:02 – 00:39:30:19
Speaker 3
I need him to do this, and he doesn’t do that. And he’s like a lump and I need him to take initiative. And you know, you can’t make that happen. And these men said, That’s what makes me feel like I can take on the world. And what was very beautiful was I told the ladies that story the next day.
00:39:30:19 – 00:39:51:11
Speaker 3
I didn’t tell them which husband said it, but you could hear a pin drop. The whole room went, Oh, it was a sudden realization of, Wow, okay, okay. It’s really hard to do sometimes that right? Because maybe he doesn’t always do it right. Maybe he didn’t quite do that thing that you were hoping or maybe asking or even bugging about.
00:39:51:11 – 00:40:24:11
Speaker 3
Right. So there’s always going to be this dance between trying to communicate your needs well, right. But also recognizing the power that our affirmation has. And so, I mean, I’m sure we’ll probably talk about final, say, decisions and things like that. But I think the meeting potatoes, the every day experience of authority, of submission is actually just in him trying to generously give every day in her trying to appreciatively receive again even if she’s doing a million things for him.
00:40:24:11 – 00:40:33:03
Speaker 3
That appreciation is what fuels him and for her knowing that he cares and wants to please me and try to serve me is what keeps me going.
00:40:33:05 – 00:40:53:06
Speaker 1
For faithful God’s planning listeners, How the Bonaventure would love the reference to sales that you just read to the I think so one. We have a lot of a lot of young people who listen to the podcast out of undergrads or people that are recently out of school. And you know, many from this generation are coming to faith and coming to family, even having to make it up.
00:40:53:06 – 00:41:14:13
Speaker 1
So they’re extremely influenced. And by make it Up, I mean, piece it together for themselves is a very bold thing. It’s not pejorative at all in my understanding of what’s going on, where we’ve come to know many young people that want to reclaim and restore what ought to be theirs in terms of how the family should be structured and how they should practice their faith.
00:41:14:15 – 00:41:45:11
Speaker 1
But but they’re subject in this discourse to myriad voices that distort, distort this understanding of submission and obedience in egregious ways. On the side of masculinity. We can think of Andrew Tate, who’s about as disgusting a creature as they come. Or you can think of some I don’t know, some secular trad wife who would who would represent a distortion for four women, some admixture of truth in each of these visions.
00:41:45:11 – 00:42:12:17
Speaker 1
Right. But but. But no small amount of falsehood, which is why we have to be clear and critical in bringing up some of these characters. So so my my question and my purpose in raising raising this idea of a distortion is I wanted to ask you, Mary, how do you think young people can go about bringing about obedience, lived in marriage as it ought to be without having the advantage of seeing a model for them?
00:42:12:22 – 00:42:19:20
Speaker 1
How how do you live this obedience paradox in your relationship as you’re discerning marriage in your marriage?
00:42:19:22 – 00:42:47:03
Speaker 3
Yes, I agree. It’s a challenge because if for some people who many people. Right. Who experienced, you know, a beautiful or even a decent dynamic growing up, if they don’t have that, it can be easy to to sort of look externally and say, oh, here’s this new blog or this podcast and oh, it just means that I have to maybe I have to wear a lipstick and dress all the time and I have to, you know, make all sorts of homemade foods and please my husband.
00:42:47:04 – 00:42:52:00
Speaker 3
Okay. All of those things taken individually might be a beautiful thing.
00:42:52:01 – 00:42:54:19
Speaker 1
And people should get concerned and they should cook rice right.
00:42:54:21 – 00:43:08:16
Speaker 3
Like, there’s nothing wrong. There’s nothing wrong Now, it’s not just nothing wrong. It’s a beautiful thing, right? To make homemade food and to until the beautiful right, not just for your husband, for everyone around you. Right. Everyone has to look at you. But I think it is important.
00:43:08:18 – 00:43:12:18
Speaker 1
When you live in a Dominican seminary. But okay.
00:43:12:19 – 00:43:36:08
Speaker 3
Well, I know that, for example, in us, what should people do? I do think we do have to seek out mentor couples. The church has always assumed I’ve heard people criticize, oh, you know, men have to spend a long time preparing to be a priest, but you only need six months to prepare for marriage. Well, the church is always assumed that you, in some sense had a lifetime to prepare by witnessing your own parents.
00:43:36:08 – 00:44:01:01
Speaker 3
Right. But we know that because so many family situations, we’re not able to model what you know, this dynamic. People are sort of aimless, I think talking, you know, through your priest, through your parish to find a mentor couple, find a couple that you admire, and they need to be older than you are. I mean, even where I am now, I there’s a couple couples in my mind that are ten years ahead of me that I sort of, you know, look to them.
00:44:01:03 – 00:44:24:20
Speaker 3
Because what I think you’re going to find is, number one, everybody’s different. Every couple has a unique dynamic. Right. Let’s you know, chances are, if you’re the type of mom that you know, maybe wears leisurewear all the time and goes for runs and you have your thing, chances are your husband probably fell in love with you because he likes that you’re active like it doesn’t mean that you have to change who you are, right?
00:44:24:22 – 00:44:43:13
Speaker 3
You have to go with the grain. You know, maybe your husband is a really good cook and loves and maybe does more of the cooking for that. That’s great. Go with the grain, Ray. Go. Go with the individual gifts and talents, but try to go a little deeper and Rick and Self examine. Right. This is what’s beautiful about a gift dynamic.
00:44:43:18 – 00:45:03:18
Speaker 3
What’s dangerous about it is it takes two to tango. And if one of them isn’t doing right, you can still have a lot of suffering in your marriage, right? You can’t force the other to do something. But the positive side of that is women can say, Hmm, what can I do to make him know that he’s appreciated? What can I do to communicate in a more positive way with my husband?
00:45:03:18 – 00:45:23:08
Speaker 3
Right. We all have things we can work on, right? Men can say, How can I serve her needs better? How can I serve the needs of my family better? What? What can I do to step it up? Like there’s plenty of room for self-examination? Because ideally, if he’s giving, well, it’s going to motivate her to be more appreciative.
00:45:23:10 – 00:45:42:02
Speaker 3
Or if she is focusing on the things that he does do well, even if there’s things he could do better, it’s going to hopefully fill his sails and motivate him to give better, right? So we can each do things that potentially help motivate the other. But it’s not as simple as well, my family has to look exactly like that family.
00:45:42:02 – 00:46:08:04
Speaker 3
There’s different situations and you have to use prudence, right? There’s prudence is the application right, of a general principle to the specific, concrete details of a situation. And so we’re all different people. We’re in different situations, different times. How can we in our marriage, how can he says, how can I serve their needs better? And she asks, How can I receive what he does for me better?
00:46:08:04 – 00:46:31:22
Speaker 3
And as that that can build a unity in any situation so you don’t have to look like some sort of cookie cutter picture family. That is probably, again, unrealistic because whenever people are putting their images, no offense, I think people have probably a lot of helpful blogs and things online. But when you’re sort of videotaping your own family or constantly putting pictures of your own family and this is how we do it.
00:46:32:00 – 00:46:33:23
Speaker 1
Sure. Everyone knows accurate, right?
00:46:34:01 – 00:47:04:08
Speaker 3
But women in particular, women, part of who we are tends to be we are very prone to comparisons. We take things very personally and we’re comparing ourselves all the time. And that’s very dangerous. It’s obvious, right? So recognizing that it’s not about looking a certain way, it’s knowing each other, knowing what we love about each other, and how can we in a particular way, I think, how can I give better?
00:47:04:08 – 00:47:26:15
Speaker 3
How can I serve the needs of my family better by listening, by being present? And how can we as as wives and mothers really, in a sense, receive better? It’s difficult on both ends. It’s very difficult, but it’s actually because it tends to result in unity. It fills you with it can fill you with joy and be very uplifting and encouraging.
00:47:26:17 – 00:47:53:01
Speaker 2
Okay. So maybe a final question for me. Concerns the relationship between husband and wife and then Christ in the church. There are parallels. I mean, it’s an analogy. So it’s partly a like and partly to verse something specifically about like the coming and going of grace, because in comparing the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ in the church, I think about it in terms of like the way that Saint Thomas describes the giving of Christ’s grace.
00:47:53:05 – 00:48:20:00
Speaker 2
So Christ, you know, enjoys this grace of union whereby his human nature is open, statically conjoined to his godhead, from which flows individual grace, you know, So it fills him up from the top of his head to the soles of his metaphorical feet. I mean, he’s got real feet, but the filling up, you get it. So but then this habitual grace we refer to as capital grace in that we who constitute his members, you know, the members of his body, partake of his grace, We partake of his habitual grace.
00:48:20:02 – 00:48:41:13
Speaker 2
And so there’s a sense in which to speak of Christ as head is to speak of him as a principal, as a governor, as one who is perfect, you know, like the perfector of our spiritual lives, the the one who orders. And so there are going to be elements about of each of these things present in the relationship of the husband to the wife.
00:48:41:15 – 00:49:08:21
Speaker 2
But obviously in a different sense insofar as the husband isn’t God, he’s not the author of grace. His governance, you know, unfolds within bounds insofar as he’s fallible and is not the creator and end of his work. So like, how do you do some of the work of translation in a way that so it’s like some people coming into the conversation are going to be nervous that you make your husband a kind of God and you’ve laid the groundwork for that kind of distinction to this point.
00:49:08:21 – 00:49:11:06
Speaker 2
But can you just do some more of that work of transition?
00:49:11:06 – 00:49:37:12
Speaker 3
Yes. So for in either state a little bit, she says she says, yes, the husband is, you know, his model in the situation is is our lord and he’s not great. So I think that what we have to recognize is, yes, the husband, when we talk about Christ in the church, guess what? Human beings, husbands and wives are all part of the church, right?
00:49:37:14 – 00:50:14:14
Speaker 3
So in a way, women can help men to be receivers before God, Right? Ultimately, a man, even if he identifies with his wife. This works in his days. Son gets a sense of self-worth through them. Guess what? Success or failure? He has to believe that he’s actually lovable because Christ loves them, right? So we actually, as women have a gift of helping men realize that in the grand ultimate scheme of things, they too, the church is feminine, the church receives.
00:50:14:16 – 00:50:41:01
Speaker 3
And so for a man, he’s in a difficult spot. He’s at the same time receiving. I think a good example is Saint Joseph, right? Because Joseph wants of course he wants to do the will of God. He wants to obey. But Joseph actually obeys God by stepping in and becoming head of the Holy Family. He didn’t feel worthy.
00:50:41:07 – 00:51:01:12
Speaker 3
I talk about that in the book. Saint Thomas talked about that origin. Jerome. They all thought that Saint Joseph wanted to exit the stage quietly. As far as marrying Mary, not because he thought that Mary was unfaithful or something, but it was because he recognized that what was happening in her was wow of the Holy Spirit. He did not feel worthy.
00:51:01:14 – 00:51:25:17
Speaker 3
And guess what God said? Nope, this is exactly where I want you. So men have to, in a sense, obey. They have to receive God’s will for them by stepping up and being the head of the family, which again, is can be quite a burdensome responsibility. Very scary. And so on the one hand you see, oh, that is a form of obedience.
00:51:25:17 – 00:51:54:03
Speaker 3
It’s a form of obedience to God. So these analogies sort of intercede fact, but that when a man sees that he’s living his headship as a way of receiving God’s will, I think that ties in the the mutual subordination and and that will hopefully again, help him to have the humility and recognize his inadequacy, his need for prayer and for grace so that it’s not simply he is a god.
00:51:54:05 – 00:52:18:08
Speaker 3
No, He, too, is trying to do God’s will. What’s interesting in one of my listeners and a talk that I gave pointed this out recently that our lady was even called, I mean, she’s this image throughout the book of receptivity to God’s will, right? She actually has to submit to Joseph, I think, about what happened with the flight into Egypt.
00:52:18:10 – 00:52:45:04
Speaker 3
Scripture doesn’t tell us that the angel appeared to Mary and said, Herod’s soldiers are going to come and kill the Jesus, right? The angel comes to Joseph and Mary and Joseph makes the call. Right? We have to get up in the middle of the night and flee. Mary has to trust Joseph. She has to. Okay, honey. So even our lady was called to submit to this not perfect human husband, right?
00:52:45:04 – 00:53:07:17
Speaker 3
So even Mary that lives out. Yeah, I know you’re not God, but I’m going to submit to you. And actually, the the scariest part, I think, about submission is do I have to obey him if he, like, tells me what to do? Right. This idea of do I like, do husbands have this right or ability to make a kind of final decision?
00:53:07:19 – 00:53:36:07
Speaker 3
And I think if you look at it, certainly a wise husband is going to respect and trust his wife to make many, many decisions. But in the course of a marriage, there do come times when there’s when you’re kind of at an impasse. We’ve talked about it and we can’t seem to agree. Well, okay, is it given to him to make this final decision because somehow he’s more like God or more intelligent or whatever?
00:53:36:07 – 00:54:05:10
Speaker 3
I think there are some masculine gifts that supports this kind of a thing, but I think ultimately in those moments, a woman has a special gift. She has the gift. Women tend to put our relationships right. We desire relationships that person oriented this. We have an ability to put our relationship. We I said earlier that women can make a distinction between who you are and what you do.
00:54:05:12 – 00:54:26:04
Speaker 3
A woman can more easily make a distinction between her love for her husband and her love for his decision. And because of that, she can say, All right, I guess I can get on board with it. And we’re talking moral things. Only a woman is under no obligation to obey something that would be immoral or that would debase her.
00:54:26:05 – 00:54:49:11
Speaker 3
Absolutely. That’s not a gift. Right. But ideally, husband’s gift is something that he does right for the family and that includes his decisions. If he says, all right, yep, I think we’re going to take this job in Ohio, even though we can’t seem to agree. We find some a decision has to be made, right? He makes it. Women do tend to because we have this ability to make a distinction between who someone is and what they do.
00:54:49:13 – 00:55:11:08
Speaker 3
We can say, All right, I think I can get over that because I love you. And it’s a kind of expansive gift to stretch and adapt. And because of that, that’s what can maintain unity in situations, even if the decision he makes backfires. Right? We took that new job and actually it was a disaster. Or we decided to move to this place.
00:55:11:08 – 00:55:35:04
Speaker 3
And, you know, in a way, a woman’s submission is a safeguard. It’s not a guarantee that he’s always going to make the wisest, but it’s a guarantee of unity so that they can get up, get up, dust themselves off and move on and stay together. It’s a kind of guarantee of unity. It’s not there because he is God and he knows everything.
00:55:35:04 – 00:56:01:07
Speaker 3
As a matter of fact, it’s very vulnerable and very stressful. I really think sometimes maybe that’s why men tend to die younger. But anyway, you know, it’s a big pressure to carry. But I think that a woman’s gift of adaptability and being able to make that distinction is actually, I think you might call it a failsafe. It’s like a recovery plan, because we all know things don’t always things don’t always go how we hope that they will.
00:56:01:09 – 00:56:27:06
Speaker 3
And so really, if a man is making final decisions on a daily basis, there’s a problem in that marriage. He’s not trusting her. He’s not treating her as an equal. He’s not treating her as a rational person. You need some therapy. But the final say decisions which come around now and again, we have to understand that this headship submission thing is actually a kind of failsafe to preserve unity, especially when things go wrong.
00:56:27:08 – 00:56:38:05
Speaker 1
The only slight correction I wanted to make there is that I think men tend to live shorter because of the cigars and red meat and maybe more of a readiness to take some risks.
00:56:38:05 – 00:56:47:10
Speaker 3
It makes me feel better. Maybe I need to give my husband a little more red meat and cigars just so that if he does go first, I won’t necessarily feel that it was on me.
00:56:47:12 – 00:56:57:21
Speaker 2
I I’ve heard that married men tend to live longer on account of the fact that, one, they have someone reminding them to go to the doctor. Things in their bodies seem to fail.
00:56:58:02 – 00:56:58:15
Speaker 1
To eat.
00:56:58:17 – 00:57:15:09
Speaker 2
Too. They feel responsibility for their progeny, especially when driving an automobile. And three they do tend to rein in destructive. Yeah, like consumption, as Father Patrick mentioned. So I’ve heard all three of those conduce to longer life. Well, that.
00:57:15:09 – 00:57:20:06
Speaker 3
Makes me feel better. You don’t have to have that on my conscience. Yeah, you’re crazy. Thank you.
00:57:20:06 – 00:57:22:09
Speaker 2
As. As for us, you know, things are.
00:57:22:09 – 00:57:34:23
Speaker 1
Less clear to our own devices. Mary, thank you so much for taking the time today for joining us. I wonder. So. So you have the obedience paradox. Where can people find you or follow you if they’re interested in other projects? Yes.
00:57:34:23 – 00:57:39:09
Speaker 3
So goodness, I don’t have much of a platform. I Good for.
00:57:39:09 – 00:57:42:01
Speaker 1
You. That’s excellent. And gradually, hallelujah.
00:57:42:01 – 00:57:48:01
Speaker 3
I also write articles on why technology is bad. So maybe that’s my problem. That’s nice.
00:57:48:03 – 00:57:50:09
Speaker 2
Do you write them on Kinnear Form tablets?
00:57:50:09 – 00:57:57:01
Speaker 1
Please tell me there is You go there. You use I to write articles about my technology. Bingo.
00:57:57:03 – 00:57:58:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:57:58:03 – 00:58:21:08
Speaker 3
Maybe someday I will be gathering snippets from my articles and I’ll be telling you that stat. But I do adjunct for Christendom college, so I am on their website and you can contact me in that way. But I do. Again, the book is published through our Sunday Visitor. It’s also on Amazon and I’ve got several, several and podcasts and things online, so I’m just sort of looking for Mary Stanford, obedience paradox and things should pop up.
00:58:21:10 – 00:58:23:13
Speaker 3
Yes. So thank you so much for friends.
00:58:23:13 – 00:58:40:22
Speaker 1
If you’re interested in this question, get the book. It’s wonderful. It’s also short, which is one of the best things you can say about a book, because at a lot of times the best ideas are an accessible read. So Mary’s book is certainly worth spending time with. So and thank you again, you know, for the time that you’ve given us today.
00:58:41:00 – 00:58:44:03
Speaker 3
Thank you so much for having me and letting you spread the word.
00:58:44:05 – 00:59:01:23
Speaker 1
So, listeners, turning to you, we want to thank you for tuning into this episode of God’s spending. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a comment in the chat. Let us what you think about it. Is Mary right, Is Mary wrong? What did we miss? What are you interested in hearing more about? We’re grateful to all of you who support the podcast.
00:59:02:01 – 00:59:23:19
Speaker 1
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00:59:23:20 – 01:00:12:14
Speaker 1
You run the podcast here. But as always, the most important thing is that we ask that you please continue to pray for us, know that we’re praying for you. God bless.