Sober Curious | Fr. Gregory Pine & Fr. Joseph-Anthony Kress

May 1, 2025

This transcription was generated using AI technology. Please note that there may be errors or inconsistencies.

This is Father Gregory Pine. This is Father Joseph Anthony Kress. And welcome to Godsplaining. Thanks to all those who support us. If you enjoy the show, please consider making a monthly donation on Patreon. Be sure to like and subscribe to Godsplaining wherever you listen to your podcast. All right. Father Joseph Anthony, at the beginning of this year, we did like a little update episode.

Oh, yeah. And, he was recounting the fact that after having been the chaplain at the University of Virginia for eight and a half years. Wahoo! Our baby. You are now in New York City at Saint Vincent Ferrer. And, you’re working for the Dominican Foundation as the rosary promoter? Yes. Any, like, big things in the first few months in those plays, in those, positions, like things you’ve noticed, things you want to just kind of share with the people of God about the city of New York.

Yeah. What was it? I think that was Will Smith in the mid s said, New York is the city that we know don’t sleep, but they all know that Philly stayed jiggy. I think that was what he said, I think. So, do you have any other similar observations, perhaps in a rapt fashion, about that great metropolis in which you currently reside?

Yeah, it’s, it’s in the Big Apple. So from the blue Ridge to the Big Apple, that’s where I am. That’s the title of my new EP. But the memoir that you’re writing. Yes, exactly. Memoirs. But it’s good. I’m. I’m starting to kind of settle into the city. I’m meeting a lot of New York City pizza, which is real good.

Okay, get out and see the sights and sounds. What are your thoughts about putting a napkin on top of a piece of pizza? As a way to absorb some of the, grease slash butter slash whatever comes off it? Do you think it’s gross? Yeah. No, no, no. You think those people are weird? Yes. Do you have stronger thoughts?

I like prison them. I think napkins are to be used, like on your face. Okay. Not on the food itself. On your face, not on the food. Okay. All right. Great. Sorry to interrupt. No, it’s, it’s all good. Went to, see Hamilton, within the first few weeks. So it was. That was unbelievable.

Such a beautiful, like. I mean, such a well done back in, like, , I think people were they had, like, cadavers waiting outside of whatever venue standing in for them. They’d like donated bodies to science. So, yeah, those bodies could be used to get tickets. This is a gross image. I as soon as possible, but yes, I was, okay.

I had good friends of mine that got me tickets because they knew I was going to New York, and so they said, hey, you know, within the first few weeks, you got to do this. Wow. Unbelievable. That was my first Broadway show. And what a way to start off with. Yes. And walked out of the theater and we walked across the street, and then we’re in the heart of Times Square, which is, I think probably a portal to hell.

Oh, Times Square is awful. Okay. Okay. Did not enjoy that area. Okay. But, like, then we walked home and, walked up Lexington Ave back to the Priory, and it was just it’s a really, new way of life and experience. But there is something I remember, seen a comedian recently talking about. He was in LA and came back to, New York City.

But he’s like New York City of it’s very nature. You encounter so many radical and different, life experiences. You have, like the subway and all the different, elements of humanity that’s involved there. And then on the streets is like, you cannot be left in your own, like, world thinking you’re the main character in New York City because you exist, you’re forced to interact with so many different other people in their own lives.

Yeah. And I think there is something beautiful to that. Like, you realize you recognize that this world doesn’t revolve just around you. Yeah. Like you’re forced to see everybody else’s humanity. And it’s kind of, radical differences. But in that city, so it’s there’s a lot of really fun things to do in the city. I’m starting to settle in.

Yeah. Way. Okay. People say that, New York City is kind of a cultural scion or cultural leader of a certain sort. So like if things are happening amongst human beings, they’re probably going to crop up in New York City first or second after LA. That’s a very Americano centric view of things, but here I am.

I can be no other. So so you may have seen kind of popping up in the new York City alcohol scene. Not that you are a big for quencher of the aforementioned alcohol scene, insofar as we ourselves have fridges which are fully stocked with the finest of alcoholic products, which would be like what would that be? Kirkland.

Miller Lite? Yeah. Kirkland. Lagers? Yeah. Island lager. I’m in a fishing out of the highlife night. I love the highlife. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just for the record, is that the champagne of beers? It is. Okay. It is. I love okay, because I thought it was, Okay, but have you seen, any of these, like, sober bars or dry bars cropping up where people are drinking mocktails and nonalcoholic beers?

Yeah, it’s wild. And even saw it when I was in Charlottesville. Oh, I saw it. Like, even amongst the students, there that there’s this big push for the sober, curious movement. Yeah, where people are saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, I’m not going to do I’m not going to be drinking all the time, or I’m just not going to drink for a period or things like that.

You see it with the rise of like, Sober October. Like that’s another kind of trend that people like January Gray January or Damp January, like. Yeah. And it does crop up everywhere. And you’re like, how is there an entire bar? And they’re like, we specialize. And this bar specializes in not having alcohol. Like, so you’re a restaurant, like that’s what you are.

We don’t have food. Yeah, exactly. We just have it. This is a liquid diet. Nonalcoholic. You’re like, fine. I’m here for the grapefruit cleanse. Yeah, yeah. But it’s happening out there, and it’s very, very popular with, Gen Zers or the Zoomers and things like that. That this is something that is like swirling in that generation of saying, like, actually, we want to take an a different approach to alcohol than probably previous generations have.

Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s an interesting, story that is at play there. And I think there’s some positive things and some maybe negative things. But one of the things that I see immediately is that alcohol doesn’t have to be at the center of, their social interaction, which I think for, you know, coming out of a culture in the United States where the drinking age is  and it’s a very puritanical push and, there’s been a lot of, research and things that have said that because the higher drinking age, it’s encouraged, like binge drinking in the past.

Well, now they’re saying, well, we don’t even have to have alcohol at all to be the heart of our social engagements. Maybe there’s another thing. There’s another option. There’s another way. That’s an interesting engagement. That’s an interesting story, which I think is worth kind of reflecting on. And yeah, I think like, you know, maybe  years ago on the island of Manhattan, you’d have one lawyer working  hours a week and another lawyer working  hours a week, and they’d get together on a Friday or Saturday night, if possible, and then drink like lords or drink like it was ending the next day.

Wake up in a puddle of their own regret. Lather, rinse, repeat. Make a bunch of money. Drink a bunch of alcohol and like. Work hard, play hard, work hard, play hard. I think like like you said, like the center of a lot of social interaction would be the consumption of alcohol. And in maybe certain boutique environments, the consumption of tobacco or other things.

Or maybe like, you know, and daytime hours of consumption of coffee. But like a lot of human interaction, a lot of human communion transpires around the table or it transpires around the sharing of certain goods. And I think there’s a kind of social anxiety which arises when you don’t have access to those things. But what we’ve noticed or what we’re seeing is, for instance, in that  year period, the percentage of people in college who don’t drink has gone from like % to %.

So almost a % increase. And we can attribute that to any number of factors. It seems like the health question yes is important because people now are more health conscious. I think people are more mental health conscious by far and away. Right. Yeah. They also see physical health as contributing to mental health or physical health as demanding its own kind of care concern in its proper right or in its own right.

And so people are just kind of taking a step back and trying to evaluate whether anything good can come of alcohol. And so I think it’s at the very least, it’s an interesting moment to pose those questions. And maybe curious is the exact right word whereby to frame the narrative or whereby to frame the discourse, to pose those questions and then to engage each other as to the role of alcohol in our lives, both individually and communally.

And then, like, what does that signify for the building of something shared or the building of something common? So what do you take to be? I don’t know, like what do you take to be some of the benefits of this or what are interesting ways in which you see the conversation going, yeah, I think that’s, the benefit or probably the major motivation behind this is there’s much more, concern about the mental health of people.

And they’re like, well, if we look at the track record, alcohol doesn’t really have a great track record with like improving mental health. And so it’s like, well, then maybe we take that out of the equation now. Yeah. I don’t think they’re wrong. Like it’s you know, it’s helping to give people better sleep. And we all know that how how important sleep is nowadays.

And to track our sleep and see, you know, did I have a good night’s rest with your little, like, health ring or whatever it is? And alcohol is part of that equation. So I think there’s there’s much more, a much deeper concern with like a holistic approach to things and saying like, oh, this has consequences.

This has a domino effect in everything. Maybe if I do, attend to what I’m consuming that has this overall health on both physical and mental. And so I think there is the ability of that. I do think the titling of the movement as being sober curious. It fascinates me. Some of it’s good, some of it’s bad.

I think it what it does is it phrases or frames this entire thing in the approach of a it’s a fluid experience. Everything’s fluid. And so it doesn’t really push the individual to commit to something. It’s all on my terms. Well I’ll do it for  days. What to prove that I can do it and I’ll have a good month, but then I’ll go back in.

Like, my experience is very fluid in that way that I don’t actually have to commit to a certain lifestyle, or I have to commit to, priorities that then demand actions or consequences to this. But it’s all on my terms, you know, and there’s a fluidity there that I kind of find a little concerning, because if we can approach this and there’s other aspects of life, whether it’s gender and sexuality, that is all these things are fluid.

It doesn’t force the individual to make decisions. It says, well, basically at the end you can still make decisions in the moment or whatever feels good. And that’s that’s fine for the moment. But, you don’t have to commit to anything in that way. So and that’s a little different than just what we would call generally like sobriety.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that’s a different approach to it. And there’s a lot of like literature out there that’s like, well, sober curious is different than abstinence from alcohol or that. And those are like very two different things. So, I have some, some concerns about the, the curiosity side of it. Maybe that merits further inquiry because so this is in large part associated with a book published in , Warrington, called Sober, curious.

And then she has a subtitle which promises various things that you will kind of derive more freely or more abundantly from life as a result. And so, like, you know, we start with the health things that we’ve identified. Yeah. First thing that people think of as hangovers, I think the next thing that people probably think of is sleep, you know, quality of sleep.

But then also concentration, general silliness when you get to really problematic consumption of alcohol. Yeah. And we’re talking about like liver problems and we’re talking about the general degradation dependance. Yeah, chemical dependance, alcoholism, etc.. But I think like a lot of us, you know, especially people were somewhat conscious of their own fragile or volatile, mental health will notice changes when it comes to like anxiety, depression, mood swings, things like that.

So I haven’t had alcohol in like two years. And the reason for which is just it makes me so, so moody. Like I would say, like, I don’t I don’t tend to run said sad, but I run a little sad. But when I drink alcohol, I run sad, sad sad sad. Yeah. Which is just like devastating to feel oneself on the verge of tears up until the moment where you go to sleep and wake up somewhat refreshed, but maybe not.

And so like, for me, it was just a kind of question of, you know, physical mental health and and like whether or not that were the type of choice that could be integrated in a human community. And so it’s it’s fascinating the way that the movement is billed as sober, curious. It’s funny. I don’t know that I necessarily take it as lack of commitment.

My suspicion is that it might be a kind of, I suppose, evangelicals the wrong word, but it might be a kind of pedagogical approach, because in the past, I think a lot of so, so when you talk about sobriety, you’re talking typically about chemical dependance. Yes. You know, so it’s like this person has a problem with alcoholism.

He may have got in touch with the  step program. And then now he’s working the steps and the only way in which for him to be free is through sobriety. You know, you can talk about dry drugs, you could talk about whatever. But like, the only way in which for him to be free, free is total sobriety.

So no nonalcoholic beers less than . percent. No kombucha. You know, Sudafed, you know, just like sobriety. So that that would be total abstinence. Whereas here I think that the idea with sober curious is like, let me let me kind of experiment with my use of alcohol, more or less, maybe none, but to make a determination as to am I dependent upon it?

Do I see it as absolutely necessary for social interaction? Is it the type of thing around which a lot of other anxieties cluster? So I think it’s like you kind of go into your own life as a, as like a psychologist slash sociologist. And I think like this idea of curiosity is that you’re trying to be evenhanded with your own experience.

So that way you don’t prejudge it. But I can just judge it. And then when you judge it, then be honest about what you find so that you can kind of adjust accordingly. I don’t know how much people are actually doing that. But it strikes me. Yeah, especially when, like a lot of the language around sobriety comes from religious movements, which really heavy handed off, puritanical, you know, temperance movement and stuff like that.

I think that there was just there’s a big push against certain elements of that culture because they’re judgy or they’re seen as judgy, and they don’t really have a real sense for the place that alcohol occupies in human culture. Right? So I don’t know, like what? Where are you? Yeah. You got lots of thoughts. I definitely yeah, I think what you’re trying to highlight is actually it can be a positive side to the curiosity of it.

And like there’s there’s not a bad aspect of it. I think you kind of have to hold both of these in, in your hands at the same time. Yeah. To say like actually taking a more balanced approach to this and saying like, oh, my use of alcohol. You know, there’s some people, whether it’s their own genetics or their own, history, you know, have to have a very hard line on that.

But not that’s not everybody, you know, and so are there other effects that maybe I want to kind of engage in an attempt way? You know, and that’s where this kind of curiosity comes in, like, maybe I should try, you know, alcohol alternatives and things like that. So I think there’s a an interesting approach to this being titled A sober, Curious Movement.

Yeah. Which, like I said, I think you have to hold both of those in the hands at the same time to actually then approach it in a, in a correct way. I do find, though, that we talked about alternatives and this is something that’s now become much more popular. We kind of talked about the like dry bars that are happening and things like that.

There’s much more, availability of mocktails, like the social pressure, the like used to, you know, go to a bar and it’s like, hey, can I get just like a sprite with a lime on the wedge so it looks like a gin and tonic or like I was like just soda water so that you look like you’re drinking, but like, nobody knew it type of a thing.

But now the people are very easy and open with giant like asking the way, do you have mocktails? Like they have them straight? The whole section on menu mocktails so that, you know, so I think the alternatives are increasing. You know, the nonalcoholic beer market is now like a, you know, $ million market. Wow. And it’s like, that’s wild.

Yeah. You know, used to just be like, oh, duals. And it tasted like a dead skunk. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Now you can get IPAs. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, nonalcoholic. I think another alternative that I find is fascinating, that is kind of rising at the at the same time of the sober, curious movement is the rise of cannabis.

And I’ve, I’ve found, you know, especially in, in a university setting and in a young adult professional setting, it is so much more widely accepted for people to do edibles or gummies or even to smoke marijuana. And that’s much more acceptable than even drinking alcohol. Fascinating. And so it’s like there is this desire for, you know, the the physical pleasures or the physical delights of a substance, but it’s like, well, alcohol is bad.

You know, the kind of traditional engagements, you know, alcohol and tobacco, those things are bad. But synthetically made gummy is or, you know, cannabis and that that’s now seen as actually healthy, that’s seen as acceptable. And I think is more problematic. Yeah. And so it’s an interesting thing that I don’t think humanity actually changes that much. I think humanity is radically the same in generations.

But how that’s expressed and engaged in a world that does change. So seeing these two movements, you know, actually be parallel to each other, if to me is fascinating. Yeah. Warrants a little bit of, pause. A maybe, maybe there’s a little kind of, selfaggrandizing and it’s not as, Yeah, I don’t know. No, you’re right, I think I think that that helps us to kind of bring into view the proffered goal or like the desired end for Christian, because what is it that like, we want, right.

We want physical health or mental health. Yes. Both. Good. We want to feature in an integral and flourishing humanity. But at the end of the day, like what we want most is spiritual health. And so in lots of other episodes we’ve talked about virtues, gifts of the Holy Spirit, Beatitudes, fruits of the spirit, the ways in which the grace of God is detailed and kind of elaborated for our own good functioning, you know, our own celestial functioning and so the pertinent virtue here, obviously, is temperance.

Temperance? Yeah. Temperance is a kind of genus in that genus. There are various species. When we talk about food, you know, we’re talking about like, well, there are various ways in which describe it. But you talk about like, abstinence, or you talk about fasting as a kind of especially violent violence, the wrong word, but no heroic gesture.

Yeah. And then when you talk about drink, you talk about sobriety. Interestingly, though, sobriety isn’t about non consumption. It’s about moderate consumption right. So like non consumption which we usually name now by sobriety or teetotal ism isn’t really a virtue in Saint Thomas’s estimation. And my suspicion is that reflects in part his cultural milieu. Because most of these places do don’t even have clean water and they don’t have beverage.

All that has really to alcohol for the most part. And then when it comes to sexual intercourse, you’ve got chastity, which concerns the sexual act itself, and then purity, which concerns the things that surround it. But a lot of people use chastity as a way to describe kind of the things that surround it as well. And then you got virginity is that most excellent thing, right?

So it’s like, whereas with abstinence you got fasting, whereas with, chastity you’ve got virginity. You can even think about like fortitude, you’ve got martyrdom, you’ve got a lot of these virtues which have an element or a dimension which is utmost or extreme. You don’t necessarily have that with sobriety. And yet what we’re finding now in the st century, especially with the kind of immature appropriation of drinking culture, that it’s almost become necessary for certain persons.

But I think that we should be, like, ever so slightly uneasy with that solution. And I think people who work the steps would tell you this like, yeah, yeah, there’s something in me that’s broken. I wish that it weren’t broken, but because of that, I can’t interact with this in a healthy fashion. Yeah, but I wish it weren’t broken.

I wish I could because there’s something about alcohol, obviously, that’s festive. That’s delightful. It features in a lot of cultural kind of settings and artifacts, which the Lord took for the sign under which he makes his blood present on the altar, you know, like so I think that, like, we’re not looking to be better than other people or to kind of like distance ourselves from social situations in a way that’s judgy.

We’re not looking to, you know, like and the question that you bring up about the use of cannabis really is that because, like, whether we’re talking about stimulants. Yeah. Or stupefaction, you know, like whether we’re talking about stimulation or stupefaction, we’re talking about things which alter us, right? And and maybe all to us in pleasant ways. But we need to be able to govern our approach to sense pleasures in a way that’s healthy, that’s virtuous.

So that way we’re not ruled by them. And so that way we’re genuinely free to pursue the knowledge and love of God and the upbuilding of the human community. So I think it’s like, yeah, there are various ways in which, like contradictions or inconsistencies arise, and we want to be curious about those as well. Yeah. And I think one of the positives that you can see in the sober, curious movement is that it is approaching alcohol once again, not as like the devil’s drink, right?

Like I think with the previous expressions of teetotal ism and, things of that. It was like, no, you know, alcohol has never touched these lips and they’d be impure. But once they do, then there’s this pure evil and it’s like, no, no, no, alcohol has had a place in all of our societies as a good. And I think the sober, curious movement sees that it can be a good it’s not pure evil, but also like it may not be good for me, and I’m trying to figure that out in things.

And that’s that’s not a bad thing to do, is to figure out, okay, what is my relationship with alcohol? I, I’ve yet to read that book, that you’re referencing earlier, but I think it brings up the the question is like, not so much of, like, how do I want to handle this? How do I want to control my.

But it’s like, what is my relationship with alcohol? Am I using it as an escape? Is am I using it as a comfort? Am I using it to kind of bring levity to, social situations and enjoy it in moderate ways? Or, you know, I know people are like, I love it. But like, once I start drinking, I just I don’t know how to stop.

You know, those are different things. And these might be ways to start to, give clarity to what my relationship with alcohol looks like. And then I, I think we can maybe give ourselves parameters for it. Like you said, you haven’t drunk or you haven’t had any alcohol for two years. At this point, I had an experience, you know, approximate experience, with somebody in my life with alcoholism.

And because of that, I’ve made decisions. It’s like, yeah, I don’t really drink alone. I don’t drink even at the Priory. Like, I’ll drink out, like, if I’m with friends, because that gives me certain parameters. But understanding my own relationship with alcohol, understanding relationship with alcohol I’ve seen in others proximate in my life can give me now parameters through which I engage in and not just like it’s available.

I should do this. This is the kind of social expectations of what you do. No, I need to. I need to make commitments on what my own engagements look like and maybe give myself certain parameters there as well. Yeah, yeah. So I think that, you know, in thinking about it in terms of our own virtuous formation, we really want to be free.

You know, we want to be free to live our human lives with the kind of reckless abandon. And there are ways in which we can be overly reliant or dependent, or we can be enslaved or. Yeah, just kind of inordinately bound up with certain things. And so we just want, we want to come to a better awareness of those things so that we can begin to address them.

But at the end, like, we’re not going to solve our own problems. No, no, no, we’re always going to be in a position of asking the Lord for his solutions, insofar as he sees fit to provide them while we are here on the surface of the Earth. But it’s like the ordinary course, you know, when we talk about virtue, we talk about acquired virtue.

But for these moral virtues like justice, fortitude, temperance, there’s not just acquired virtue, there’s also infused virtue. So the Lord can give in abundance in a way that outstrips our experience. So that goes beyond. Yeah. You know like our kind of plotting formation to supply a partaking or a sharing in his divine life, which is, I mean, beyond what we would have thought possible if left to our own devices.

And so I think that like when we when we experience difficulty with sense goods, with sense pleasures, it does convict us as to our own inability or incompetence, like, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death. Yeah, which is a good thing. But then we need to know how to direct those questions, or how to formulate and then direct those questions.

And I think that the sober, curious thing can be really helpful to that end, provided that it it facilitates a conversation with those who know, with those who love, you know, like members of our community, members of our family and friends. But then ultimately with God, you know, because it’s like, if it’s just me talking to me about me, I mean, who cares?

Like at the end of the day, who cares? Yes, that’s for darn sure. Yeah. You know, but if we can break that conversation open, I think that we can find some or we can have some fruitful kind of encounters. And I think let’s let’s talk about the virtue of, let’s talk about, you know, the virtue of temperance and sobriety in that way.

Like, what are actually what are the goods of alcohol that we should hold in value, that once again, like you said, when you’re dealing with somebody who has had a past with alcoholism and, has gotten to the point, they’re like, there’s something broken in me, and I can’t approach that good. Like I don’t have the, capacity to engage in that.

So, like, what would be some of the goods of alcohol that we shouldn’t necessarily just throw out immediately in that sense? Yeah, I think it’s like, so as I see it, you know, some of the things we listed like festivity, relaxation, delight, joy, you know, there are reasons for which alcohol comes up so frequently in sacred Scripture.

You know, what banquet imagery comes up so frequently in Sacred Scripture? Why, it’s often used as a way by which to describe heaven, but also like just across all cultures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it was one of those really, really, really rare things that actually cuts across all cultures. Every culture has their different kind of engagement, whether it’s, vodka or wine or beer or soccer or whatever it may be, like you do find this as part of humanity wherever humanity shows up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, like, we have to be able to recognize the good in that and not shrink from it, just on account of the fact that that can be misused and can prove destructive, which I think I think that’s what we’re seeing in a lot of these conversations. And if I don’t drink, it’s not because I’m better.

Then it’s like, I wish that I could not feel as sad as I do. And certain sense, because it makes it easier to commune, it makes it easier to share life. Yeah. You know, like at  p.m. on a Thursday night in the streets of whatever, like Vienna, Austria, you know, it’s like, I wish I could drink this cool white wine they produce in the valley and not feel really, you know, like it’s it’s lamentable.

But I think that, you know, when we look towards heaven and the general resurrection and when we look towards the banquet imagery which describes that, I mean, I don’t think it’s inappropriate to expect something after the manner of wine, you know, like something after the manner of beer or something after the manner of alcohol consumption. And so, yeah, like the point of having these conversations and trying to incorporate these habits into here now is to get possession of our humanity such that we’re not enslaved by social expectation, or so that we’re not enslaved by our own kind of chemical dependance, so that we can make a more generous offering of ourselves, both to the

other with whom we’re in conversation and in interaction, and then to God, so that, you know, he can be all in all and can bring us to the desired term. So yeah, yeah. Final thoughts. No, I, I think it’s a really interesting thing because it is a very social and even cultural shift. Right. Like we said, like there’s been cultures.

It’s it’s alcohol is present where humanity is present. And so every culture has a different engagement with it. And previous generations have taken the pure abstinence route and looked at alcohol as being purely, the devil’s drink and things like that. This current, you know, with the the Gen Z approach to it and, and how tied into or how tied Gen Z is into the sober curious movement.

Actually kind of gives me some hope for the Gen Z like that. They might be able to approach things and give it more of a balanced, you know, approach to it. But I do think that it, it, it can’t just rely on the influencers on social media to promote this, but like, we do have to say, like there is good here and it’s worth being virtuous in this space and virtuous with, a carnal pleasure of which drink is one of those.

And so it’s an interesting. Yeah, it’s an interesting movement at an interesting time that it is a very cultural shift. And is this part of our culture’s kind of patrimony at this point? Is this going to be part of our culture’s legacy, that we have this kind of, more balanced approach to, to alcohol, where previous generations were not?

I mean, the you watch, what is it? Madmen. Right. That that, that show is like they’re drinking at  a.m. and like, downing fifths in that moment, it’s like that. That’s what that culture was known for at that time. Maybe this is going to be something a little different here, and it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.

But I don’t think it it needs to be infused with virtue. And in a very, appropriate way. Party on. We’re here for one. Okay. So thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of Gods Burning. If you haven’t yet, like and subscribe wherever you listen your podcast, be it on a podcast app or on YouTube. If you can leave a review or if you can share it with a friend, that’s also helpful to get the word out and maybe even tag, Ruby Warrington and the sober, curious folks on social media as a way by which to continue the conversation. Maybe they have some insights that like to volley back. You can check out Godsplaining.org. The links for which are in the description are show notes. There you’ll find merchandise. You’ll find upcoming events one thing that we’re excited for here in the coming months is a big all comers retreat in Providence, Rhode Island. That’s June th through nd. So persons aged  and beyond, you are most welcome to join for a weekend retreat there at Providence College, which we’re really looking forward to.

So that’s what we got know of our prayers for you. Please pray for us and we’ll look forward to chatting with you next time on Godsplaining.