The Principle of Double Effect | Fr. Gregory Pine & Fr. Bonaventure Chapman
April 10, 2025
This transcription was generated using AI technology. Please note that there may be errors or inconsistencies.
00:00:05:12 – 00:00:24:12
Unknown
This Father Bonaventure Chapman And this is Father Gregory Pine. Welcome to Godsplaining. Thanks for all those who listen and tune in, and especially the Patreon supporters. If you’d like to donate to us on Patreon with a monthly donation, you can find information somewhere to do that. Please like and subscribe! Are you listening to Father Gregory?
00:00:24:14 – 00:00:45:14
Unknown
What’s up father on Twitch? I’m doing well. Thanks. Yeah. No, that was great. The thing that I love about this is, You know how, like, when you do a thing for six years, but it’s still feels like the first time. Every time it’s worse. I have to say, like, when you do prayers, for instance. Yeah, yeah, we have we have to practice our studies.
00:00:45:15 – 00:01:07:18
Unknown
Of course we have to have Damodaran, who is the leader of the week. Yeah, the head of Dharma. They’re in here and that’s a word. And if you had the choice to be between or among Centurion Legionnaire hab. Damodaran, which would you choose as your martial title? I would choose Centurion. I have done different sounds. Just like leading prayers of the week.
00:01:07:20 – 00:01:28:16
Unknown
Yeah. Not as cool, Centurion. Which I assume is, you know, you got 100 guys. Yeah, 100 is like. Yeah, they already look as has have Dom, which is the short version. Yeah. You have to or Hebdo. You have to leave prayers in front of everyone, 70 or 80, people. And these are present every day. Yep. Many times.
00:01:28:18 – 00:01:47:22
Unknown
Yeah. With bewildering frequency. But when you were saying them in front of people. They can leave you. Yeah. And you get this cool thing where I say, how do they leave you? How would you describe their leaving? They just they don’t appear. Okay. Those. So they haven’t left. They just weren’t there. Oh, they’re hiding in the recesses of your mind.
00:01:48:00 – 00:02:08:10
Unknown
Okay. And then they send us some of their men. I think. Oh, so they’re centurions too. They have men in their charge. Okay, okay, squad. Platoon, we got nice, but you get up and and so you get up and you’re like, I. And I tell myself like, no, I, I, I, I leave prayers all the time. I think to myself, it’ll be fine.
00:02:08:10 – 00:02:31:20
Unknown
And there’s a lot of voices, you know, like this is unnecessary. Yeah. I’m now going to. And then you have a choice between either focusing on the words to fight that. Yeah. I found you just have to say to yourself, trust a bit or. Yeah, just start speaking kind of zone out. Yeah. Start zone. Because if I start to pretend like you’re a patient on a Thorazine drip and just go, like, exact or fourth, obviously she’ll or that aggression to out.
00:02:31:20 – 00:02:56:02
Unknown
Yeah. If I start thinking is this the right. It’s like no, it’s too late. It’s like centipedes thinking about how they can use their legs tangled up. That’s what they tell me. Yeah. Is that it? Is that an image from, like, a philosophical text somewhere? Okay. From camp. Okay. What’s a novel now? The stranger, the plague change. Yeah.
00:02:56:04 – 00:03:20:05
Unknown
Delia’s gone. One of our. So one of the. We should have. We should have a subtheme like a subchannel on the gods burning channel, which is father. Father Bonaventure pronounces things in French. Yeah, and then we can be like. Father Patrick pronounces thing in Ukrainian. Because he was a war correspondent, of course. Yeah. One of my as a, professor to be as Hoffman, who taught me to go to school to set schools ethics and see you.
00:03:20:07 – 00:03:40:00
Unknown
Yeah. He was a foreign one point to studying attacks on, like, God’s commands and how God does things that you talked about. He referred to the wrong values. And it’s just like, what? What is that? And he’s like, oh, the great flood. Like, oh, well, that is, that’s just I take it in French, the Great flood. But there’s something that sounds like the Grand because.
00:03:40:01 – 00:03:59:23
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, that was a grand time we just wiped out. There were trumpets. Yeah, but it’s great fanfare. Yeah. So the ground, the gondolas. But it’s funny. Doesn’t have a German say it. It is. Or T.S. Eliot in his inimitable. I’m from Saint Louis, but I live in England accent when he speaks, you know. But it speaks of the years long Roger.
00:04:00:01 – 00:04:18:18
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Just just the years between the wars or between the two wars. But it sounds better that way or worse, depending on whether or not you were allergic to the pronunciation of the French language. Which, as it turns out, many Americans are. I’ve learned that when people start speaking French, Americans assume that, like, you’re not going to get along this fast in it.
00:04:18:18 – 00:04:46:08
Unknown
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Different. Yeah. I don’t have that prejudice that is. Yeah. Some we’re going to talk about something else, but yeah. Yeah, it seems. Right. So like obviously, unfortunately when you speak French, some people will, think poorly. Right. But that’s not you don’t. I don’t intend that. That’s a great point. But. So they’re out here saying, wait a minute.
00:04:46:11 – 00:05:32:07
Unknown
Yup. What is going on with, actions that sometimes, have side effects? All right. Undesirable. And what do we do with this? This is the doctrine of for those viewers who know us, doctrine of double. Yeah. Wow. Well, I think I think you you described who exactly is, That’s a great transition. Okay. So in this epochal world historical moment in which we shift from banter to subject matter, let us situate ourselves vis-a-vis the question called emergency response.
00:05:32:09 – 00:05:41:09
Unknown
What is the F is this is one of the hardest lines. I mean, this is.
00:05:41:11 – 00:06:12:02
Unknown
The it. I’ll just say I haven’t slept in a week. Basically true. Yeah. It’s great. It’s tremendous. Okay, so people are out there asking about the doctrine and or principle of. So the fact. People are asking in droves. They’re asking in hordes. I think there are people knocking on the window of this recording studio at present asking us met demanding that we supply them with a response.
00:06:12:04 – 00:06:32:06
Unknown
All right, we better we better satisfy that to satisfy the people’s needs. The people are asking what? Satisfied? Okay. So we call it the doctrine or the principle of double effect, because we’re concerned about an action which produces two effects okay, or a double effect, a two fold effect. And the idea is typically that there’s something that you desire and something that you don’t desire.
00:06:32:10 – 00:06:51:16
Unknown
And the question is whether or not it’s permissible to produce that effect that you don’t desire. When that effect that you don’t desire can bring pretty negative consequences into the world. Let’s give a simple example. Yeah, okay. So let’s say that, talk about how we would how it applies. Yeah. What’s an example of how it applies. Yeah.
00:06:51:18 – 00:07:09:18
Unknown
Oh yeah. Sure. Okay. So let’s do like a complicated example in the mountains because why not have a simple example in the valley when you can do a complicated example in the mountains? Okay. Let’s say that you and I are hiking, there’s some alpine ism involved here. We’re going up and over things which are sheer and mountaineering.
00:07:09:20 – 00:07:30:12
Unknown
There’s we’re going up and over some things that are sheer covered with ice. We’re wearing crampons, we’re using ice axes, which in French are called parallel. And at a certain point I slip, I’m connected to you. All right. So I slip and I’m exerting an incredible amount of pressure on your back. Your body. And I’m hanging over this, like, vast cosmic void.
00:07:30:16 – 00:07:48:22
Unknown
And if I fall, I will fall to my death. And here I’m down there being like. It’s okay. I’ve been looking for a good night’s sleep for the last 36 years. Yeah. So the question is, can we get ourselves out of this pickle? And it seems like we can’t, because the weight of my body is so. It’s.
00:07:48:22 – 00:08:13:07
Unknown
So what’s a cool adjectival form of weight? So weighty. Oh, gosh. Get through that, that you can’t advance. But you also can’t. You can’t go backwards either, because then both of us will be lost into the void. So I have a choice. I can choose to free you from your burden. All right. So I can take my little handy dandy Swiss Army knife and get the and it’s going to take me a while, but I can cut you loose.
00:08:13:09 – 00:08:35:06
Unknown
Yeah. In the recognition that I will fall to my death. And that’s not an act of suicide. Because what I have done is I have willed to remove you from a burden which will keep you from making your way up and over the mountain and back to a place of safety and recognition that I will die, but that I can will the saving of you foresee the dying of me and choose that uprightly?
00:08:35:06 – 00:08:54:22
Unknown
That is to say, without sin or without any moral culpability? Yeah. Now listeners and viewers, you might have thought this was just an episode. This is a example. Take the end game or something, Mr. Hansen, what have you. But I, I think actually I suspect this and this is from, our batch of secret theology. Yeah. Exactly. This.
00:08:54:22 – 00:09:17:03
Unknown
We had the same thing we did. I always remember this. Yeah. From our examiner, which is basically this one. And I’ve always remembered, like, can I cut you off? Well, you different question. It is different questions. Yeah. I was to try to put you in a non-binding sitch. Yeah, well, yeah. Take the blame. So. No, it’s I do think it matters to me.
00:09:17:05 – 00:09:46:06
Unknown
Yeah. The point the point is that it does make a nice example of how there are actions have multiple effects to them. Yeah. And the question is some actions are doable. Yeah. Morally. And there all the actions aren’t. But sometimes they come in like a package. Yeah. Yeah. Most of us aren’t mountaineering. No. But in our daily lives we do come into a lot of, of those actions where we do have side effects to these sort of things.
00:09:46:06 – 00:10:09:02
Unknown
Right. So in the most extreme case, I suppose, when you like, when you have a child. You have now brought someone to the world will die. But you don’t intend. This is the most existential formulation of the principle of double effect that I’ve heard today. Yeah. Yeah. Going to be is heresy as well. If you don’t want a weird one I can do something else.
00:10:09:02 – 00:10:30:16
Unknown
But this one’s very clear. Right. Like you. Yeah. You basically you brought me. You brought that. And so. But you don’t intend that person to die. Yeah, yeah. And you can say, well, then why did you bring them into existence? Right. Well, that’s a that’s just what it means to be. It’s included. Yeah. But also with simple things like, for instance, if you, I don’t know, buy a cup of coffee at a certain place.
00:10:30:18 – 00:10:49:13
Unknown
Yeah. It will also have effects. Yeah. That you might not want. Right. When you hand that money over and then it will go into a farm. That son might support a cause that you don’t, you don’t. Yeah. Or something. Correct. Then you say well you know, well and then you start thinking about this a lot of life has these aspects.
00:10:49:15 – 00:11:19:16
Unknown
Yeah. Well there’s a good part to what I’m doing, the bad part. And you might think, oh, well, how do I decide which one of those, I can do? Yeah. And you might think, well, I guess I’m just kind of way out of goodness and badness, but that’s nonsense. So the doctor. Yeah. And how it’s used is to deal with this case of saying, hey, we’re going to have to deal with cases where you have bad results and bad side effects.
00:11:19:16 – 00:11:39:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And military, this happens. That has to happen all the time. Yeah. Right. What? Or just in self-defense for sure. So a lot of these cases and we try to think well how do we work through this. So how does the how do we apply this. Yeah use the idea okay. Well there also we got the idea of the side effects.
00:11:39:22 – 00:11:59:15
Unknown
It seems crazy not to take into account. We could have an absolute view and say, well if there’s any bad, bad effect whatsoever then we don’t do the action. But that would, that would paralyze us in many set of circumstances. Yeah. We could have another principle that I guess we just do whatever. Yeah. Because we’re always, it’s always going to be.
00:11:59:17 – 00:12:18:02
Unknown
Yeah. We do what like maximizes or optimizes the amount of like good in the world. Yeah. Or just we don’t even care okay. You know, there’s many bad effects and all bad is sure the Neolithic hedonist. Yeah. But we say, oh, no, we. That’s both. Those seem crazy. It seems that way. So let’s find. What is this?
00:12:18:04 – 00:12:43:21
Unknown
Okay. Let’s do some principles. So a lot of this kind of body of meditation arises from a particular text of Saint Thomas Aquinas. So we know his big book of theology, the summa theology is divided into. It’s up there. It’s divided into four parts, one of which parts is called the second part of the second part. And so in that you have a description of the virtue of justice, and then you get into the kinds of justice.
00:12:43:21 – 00:13:06:07
Unknown
One kind of justice is commutative justice, the justice of exchange. Usually, if you think about in terms of like buying, selling, loaning. But but Saint Thomas will also when he’s describing the vices opposed to commutative justice, he’ll describe ways in which we infringe upon the person or the reputation or the possessions of another. And so when talking about how we infringe upon the integrity of another’s person, he describes killing.
00:13:06:09 – 00:13:33:07
Unknown
And in that he asks, so this is the second. Yeah, commutative and justice and involuntary commutative and justice. So in yeah. So in question 64, article seven, he asks whether you can kill in self-defense. And the idea is that, let’s say theoretically, you’re brandishing a weapon of some sort. It’s important what kind of weapon. But at present let’s take it as a halberd, like that big thing that the, Swiss Guard carries around, you know?
00:13:33:07 – 00:13:49:23
Unknown
So a kind of, like, swinging, stabbing or whatever. You can also use it to stir up a fire. Yeah. Okay. Both. Yeah. You have both one in each hand. It’s out there with a chainsaw attached. Nice. Oh, it’s so it’s like those tree trimming companies, you know how they have those things where they go and they get the limbs way up high.
00:13:49:23 – 00:14:10:01
Unknown
It’s basically a. Yeah, a chainsaw halberd. So you’ve got one of those and you’ve got, you see that things are looking bad and you’re charging you have, you know, so there are like trumpets involved. Fanfare. It’s like throne and you’re like, you got the thing coming at me. It looks like. And on the basis of this, let’s say that we have no prior connection.
00:14:10:03 – 00:14:39:20
Unknown
And let’s say that you’re wearing a clown costume. Yeah. Okay, so I’m looking and I’m thinking, this is a crazy person because he’s charging me with a deadly weapon accompanied by trumpets and fanfare in a way that I find totally, totally terrifying. But also animating because it’s time right now to defend my life. And let’s say that I have one of those, like, blow darts and the darts are covered in poison from the back of a tree frog, you know, so like this deep Amazonian wonder.
00:14:39:22 – 00:14:53:17
Unknown
And I’ve been training actually recreationally. No intent to kill, but I’ve been training my blow dart skills for some time. And so I see you coming, and I think, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to stop this guy in any way, but but for the blow darts, I might try like diplomacy while you’re 200 yards away.
00:14:53:17 – 00:15:18:09
Unknown
It’s like, this is a bad idea and you just keep coming. Yeah, yeah. And you’re also wearing, like, overtop of your clown costume. You’re wearing an Olympic singlet, and it’s a. So it’s from the Jamaican. Us or excuse me, the Jamaican Olympic team. Over you, over top of your clown suit. It’s a very capacious singlet. And you’ve still got, like, your bib number from the last Olympics in which you participated.
00:15:18:14 – 00:15:39:14
Unknown
So I pretty near dread certainty that you’re a faster individual than I am. We’re also in the Serengeti, and so, like, there’s nothing around in any direction except for, like, grass. Yeah, and potentially gazelles. But they’re not going to help me. So it’s like, how am I going to repulse this attacker? Yeah. The basic idea is this I’m more responsible for my life than I am for your life.
00:15:39:16 – 00:16:06:14
Unknown
All right? I’m more responsible for safeguarding my bodily integrity than your bodily integrity. And it is within bounds, justly so, within bounds to defend my life from unjust aggressors and I can use whatever kind of proportion and amount of force, as is called for in the circumstances, in order to achieve that end. All right. So I shouldn’t go to town, you know, like, let’s say there’s a small child who’s wielding a blunt pencil saying, I’m going to get you.
00:16:06:20 – 00:16:27:17
Unknown
I should be like, stop. I shouldn’t be like, beat, you know? So it should be a proportionate amount of force, not inordinate, not over the top. But in this case, I would be justified to use lethal force so as to repulse the attacker who might otherwise visit death upon me. Saint Thomas doesn’t use all of those details, but knows this is a little more.
00:16:27:17 – 00:16:40:05
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So the idea is that that your you can’t intend my death to know, of course, but you can intend to use.
00:16:40:07 – 00:17:04:00
Unknown
Knife. Yeah, right. I can’t murder, but I can kill. Exactly. Yeah. And the differences between. Well, murder is you are killing an innocent person, whereas killing is defending yourself. The situation against someone who is an unjust aggressor. Exactly. Against you right now, that seems that both. Yeah. I’ve got the passage. It might be worth reading just five sentences.
00:17:04:02 – 00:17:25:14
Unknown
Here we go. Nothing hinders one act from having two effects, only one of which is intended so that be intending your own self-defense or defense of oneself against an unjust aggressor, while the other is beside the intention that in this case would be the death of the aggressor. Now moral acts take their species like they take their shape, or they take their kind of quality or kind according to what is intended.
00:17:25:14 – 00:17:46:00
Unknown
So that’s primary and not according to what is beside the intention. Since this is accidental. Accordingly, the act of self-defense may have two effects. One is the saving of one’s life, the other is the slaying of the aggressor. Therefore, this act, since one’s intention is to save one’s own life, is not unlawful. Saying that it is natural to everything to keep itself and being as far as possible.
00:17:46:02 – 00:18:09:01
Unknown
And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore, if a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful, whereas if he repel force with moderation, his defense will be lawful, because, according to the jurists, it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense.
00:18:09:03 – 00:18:22:06
Unknown
So that’s the basic shape. There’s more there, but that’s the basic shape intention business, because, it’s nice to make.
00:18:22:08 – 00:18:47:06
Unknown
Yeah. Tension gets that shape. Yeah. You can think about the difference in the intention versus force. Yeah. Do you foresee. Yeah. You will blow right I don’t I’m going to have you’re not intending to blow dry. Yeah. You’re intending to stop me from killing you because I’m, I’m just the aggressive aggressor. Yeah. Exactly. Said previous that aforementioned chainsaw.
00:18:47:07 – 00:19:09:04
Unknown
Halberd. Chainsaw. Halberd. Yeah. That. Unless. Otherwise. Yep. Other super powers like I can survive. I have been taking. I’ve been playing with these same poison arrow darts. Building up your tolerance, keeping them. It’s like. Like the Princess Bride kind of. Yeah. You know, like they’re kind of, throat lozenges, right? I’m using them, you know, not killing them.
00:19:09:05 – 00:19:29:13
Unknown
Just kind of. Yeah. Like it will only paralyze me or stop me. Right? And you. Yeah. You may be delighted with that. I would not be upset because you. I regret the fact that I’m going to have to kill an Olympic sprinter. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Now. But. So it’s just like, for instance, whenever I walk somewhere, you might say, why are you destroying your ship?
00:19:29:14 – 00:19:47:10
Unknown
I can say what you say. Well, when you walk, you where I’m. Yeah, you were in. And I say, well, I don’t intend to where I, I would be absolutely delighted if my shoe soles never wore out. Yeah. Tend to go from here to there. Yeah, yeah. It’s a foreseen fact that. Yeah they’re going to wear out.
00:19:47:13 – 00:20:16:13
Unknown
Yeah they do. But I’d be delighted if they didn’t for some reason. Now what about this case. I’ve got set. I just intend to swing that in a space near me. Now it’s true your body happens to be. But that’s just foreseen right. It’s not intended right. Merely to swing that halberd back in that sort of space.
00:20:16:15 – 00:20:38:07
Unknown
And just like the shoes, just like the, you know the death or something like I foresee. Yeah, it’s probably, you know, I mean, I’d be delighted if you didn’t, like, split in half like I. Yeah, I was in my swinging. But you’re, I was in your swinging space just in time. So this is like, what’s distinctive about human activity or human agency.
00:20:38:08 – 00:20:58:01
Unknown
Is that reason is decisive. Okay. So we can describe an act according to its physical contours, but we have to take into account the human element, or we’re just performing like emotional or psychological gymnastics. So the question is like what’s actually taking place? We begin by observing in a kind of third person way, you know, like, what is it that’s happening here?
00:20:58:02 – 00:21:21:07
Unknown
But we have to understand, like, what is the intrinsic or interior logic of the activity? What does it entail? What is kind of born in its very DNA so that we can account for the whole of it? Because if we under describe an action where we end up just deceiving ourselves, you know, so like we as human beings are responsible for informing ourselves, for informing our consciences, for growing in virtue.
00:21:21:07 – 00:21:45:01
Unknown
Right? So developing those habits in mind of heart, which make us better human beings, and also for like trying to account for ways in which our human activity can be interrupted or derailed. So that we live better. The point is that we get progressively better, not so that we can be like, I am a superman of moral achievement, but so that we can know and love the Lord and live peaceably in his community, etc. and so our moral activity takes account for the human error.
00:21:45:01 – 00:22:04:21
Unknown
It takes account of the human factors. So when you wield a deadly weapon, you’re responsible for knowing how to responsibly. You’re responsible for knowing how to wield a deadly weapon in a human context. You can’t just say, like, I was just discharging a firearm. That’s why people are so insistent about gun safety, because it can, when wielded by a human operator, deal death.
00:22:04:22 – 00:22:28:01
Unknown
And so we should be conscious of the death dealing capacity for these instruments or implements, and that that needs to be incorporated into human culture as human reason makes the decisive contribution. So it’s an under description and a deceptive under description. To say I was just swinging the thing. Whenever you’re swinging a deadly implement, you’re responsible for your surroundings and for the types of things which might arise, which you as a human person, can foresee.
00:22:28:03 – 00:22:51:09
Unknown
Maybe not those things that you can’t foresee, you know, like it turns out like there were people playing hide and seek on the gun range. You know, it’s like you couldn’t possibly have foreseen that because those people are nuts and it’s illegal and they’re stupid. You know, it’s like, but you could have foreseen that there were, you know, like people on the cul de sac when you were shooting your firearm, like directly into the sky, or so you thought, but at a slight angle such that the bullets came down and hit a body.
00:22:51:13 – 00:23:05:21
Unknown
So I think that, like the contribution of human reason within the setting of human culture, we need to take account of the act in its integrity rather than under describing it or fancifully describing it. Yeah, I think that’s right. Bringing the whole thing, the sense of like, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Why this means as an action.
00:23:05:21 – 00:23:30:04
Unknown
And if you got a deadly weapon and that means it brings in a whole, whole well, set of considerations based on the deadliness of the weapon that obviously everyone knows you should be careful. A deadly weapons. Yeah, I think that’s right. I, I did use example in class of if it’s like hunting season and you have, one of your students, you know, one of your friends, like, likes to dress up like a deer, or something.
00:23:30:04 – 00:23:47:12
Unknown
And you should, you should said deer looks like said deer. And you get up to and you’re like, oh, my gosh, it turns out it was John. And I told John not to do that. We got, you know, you know, like, what’s wrong with you? Yeah. No you didn’t. Yeah. You did it with his little deer lips as mistletoe.
00:23:47:12 – 00:24:10:00
Unknown
No one said yeah, yeah. Because you doctorate now of course. And Thomas is one part. You get up. There you go. Oh I’m sorry. Oh, I was hoping to kill John. Oh, what a great, Did that. Yeah. Okay. I think we’ve in two parts. Yeah. What were where people would see. Yeah. Not going to see, like.
00:24:10:01 – 00:24:31:20
Unknown
No. Yeah. Even like John the Deer. I just think that’s grown out like it’s chances are low. Where do you think people would see this? And then maybe, And then why? It’s why it’s important. Like why it really matters. Because you might. People will start this, you might think this sounds like a bunch of Jesuits doing rationalization, right?
00:24:31:22 – 00:25:01:13
Unknown
Yeah. Devil effect is kind of a creepy way to get out of situations, right? So, like, why why is this essential, important to the moral life? And then where we it these might be related because one’s an example of a principle in that way. Yeah. So on my estimation, moral evaluation is moral formation. Like how you evaluate moral activity will contribute to your up building as a moral person.
00:25:01:15 – 00:25:23:03
Unknown
So if you say to yourself, like, I can basically do whatever maximizes or optimizes the consequences or effects, you become a consequentialist, maybe even a proportional list if you’re taking into account proportional or gravity. And then that, that begins to kind of propagate through the entirety of your character, it enters into the way that you think, the way that you choose, the way that you live your life more broadly.
00:25:23:05 – 00:25:49:16
Unknown
So I think that if you get the moral evaluation straight, you are free. Then to undertake the moral formation more healthily. So I think like often enough, you’ll hear double effect described as, you know, like on the basis of four principles. The activity has to be good. Right. So like when we think about the exercise of our human agency or about good things or we ought to be about good things, then the second thing is we intend the good effect and not the evil effect.
00:25:49:16 – 00:26:14:15
Unknown
Right? So it’s just elaboration. Exactly. And we don’t get the good through the evil. Right. And that’s just straight biblical principles right there. It’s like, I can’t do evil. That good might come. All right. So the ends don’t justify the means. We’re not like kind of technicians of reality trying to produce certain results. We are within the setting of God’s providence, abandoned there onto dispose to its fulfillment.
00:26:14:17 – 00:26:33:12
Unknown
And we we need to be faithful, you know, we need to be hopeful. We need to be loving if we’re going to conduct ourselves through life inappropriate fashion. And then the last is there’s got to be a grave, proportionate reason or proportionate reason of a grave sort. So it’s like you don’t just undertake this for whatsoever reason. It’s the type of thing where like lives are on the line or like people are on the line.
00:26:33:14 – 00:26:52:11
Unknown
And so I think that in getting this a value in getting this evaluation right, we have a clear sense of our own moral formation. It’s like, okay, I might not be successful in the way that the world esteems success, or I might not optimizer maximizing the way in which my business associates esteem optimizing and maximizing. But that’s not the point of human life.
00:26:52:13 – 00:27:07:12
Unknown
The point of human life is to know and love the Lord and to mature our agency so that we can get better at that within the setting of our family, our polity, our church, etc.. So I think that like often enough, you know, we’re going to be making small decisions about like when do you like replace the transmission on your car?
00:27:07:12 – 00:27:24:14
Unknown
It sounds real bad. You know who’s endangered by your bad transmission? Is it just the people inside the car? Is it the people outside the car? You know, it’s like we’re going to be making decisions on the basis of tight budgets, and we’re trying to refine the timing. There’s no optimal there’s no maximal answer to this. But the question is, how can I, as a human being undertake this?
00:27:24:14 – 00:27:45:13
Unknown
Well, so is to do it virtuously or more and more virtuously with each passing day, with each passing week, with each passing month, whatever. And so I think that, you know, it’s like it’s type of thing where we’re not going to have too many albinism, we’re not going to have too many chainsaw halberd instances, but nevertheless, we’re going to be making decisions as to what’s good, what’s good for my family, what’s good for my polity, what’s good for my church.
00:27:45:13 – 00:28:05:20
Unknown
And I think we want to be able to, like, think through that well so that we can do so freely. Yeah. I also think and I guess, man, all this bad stuff. Great. More philosopher, 20th century. Who says if you don’t make this kind of this distinction, no understandable effect. And then it’s an intentional intention versus foreseen outside the intention.
00:28:05:22 – 00:28:27:11
Unknown
Then you’re going to give up on the principle of having norms that are absolute. So I tend command that kind of norms or something like for instance, you shall not murder under any circumstance, right? If you don’t have a principle that distinguishes between intentions and foreseen, you know, and merely foreseen things, then you’re just looking at the effects.
00:28:27:13 – 00:28:49:22
Unknown
That’s going to determine things. But that means that you’re going to have to cough up any notion of any principled absolute norms, like I don’t kill innocent people because sometimes innocent people might die or effects of, you know, war or an effect of just war or affect other things. And then you don’t want to say, oh, I guess I don’t believe in absolute morality.
00:28:49:22 – 00:29:15:06
Unknown
I don’t believe in absolute things that like, you know, just categorical imperatives or commandments or something. Right. Because they’re these effects. Rather, the distinction allows you and it forces you to say, no, I, I there will be some bad effects to things. And in some decision and some of these decisions are really important. And yet I still fully believe that I you cannot take an innocent life intentionally.
00:29:15:08 – 00:29:41:00
Unknown
We can’t do that. Even if there are situations where an innocent life is taken. It’s not it’s not an immoral act because of foreseen. And that’s an extreme case. Of course, you mentioned your your case at the end. You started with the alpine case before we got to the really weird. Yeah. But it’s nice if you, you might think oh you know and instance point is you might think, you know, I’m a real absolutist like I believe morality.
00:29:41:00 – 00:30:00:20
Unknown
This sounds like me become a relativist or a consequentialist utilitarian sort of thing. And I’m I’m full on I want to be with Thomas Aquinas and cons and all this and the kind of the real voice. Right. But no, they have this position because this is the this is the conversation. You have to make this distinction. If you don’t, you’re going to be end up having utilitarian position anyway.
00:30:00:23 – 00:30:19:09
Unknown
So the cool paradox and philosophical aspect that you might think this sounds like it’s making things more complicated, but it’s actually it’s more complicated to allow for the simplicity of certain moral truths that we just never like, for instance, lying, you know, and would never tell lies under any circumstances. According to Saint Thomas Aquinas and other another moral thinkers.
00:30:19:11 – 00:30:50:03
Unknown
And this is a principle that allows you to understand how that works in the world, too. So I think it’s so even though you don’t have clown clown burgers. Not always be outlining alpine things where there are situations where you have to deal with the world and its effects, and the effects that you don’t want, I assume this is just like surgery, you know, like if you don’t believe this, then, you know, you shouldn’t be telling people, okay, but you know, that’s not your intention.
00:30:50:03 – 00:31:11:04
Unknown
Or, like, there’s a possibility that you might die on the table or something if we, you know, it’s if that’s maybe foreseen, that’s very likely. But it’s worth this, this risk because of the other thing because you don’t intend that. So it’s an important moral sanction. As you say, though, to think about the complications of what it means to live in a world seeking the good.
00:31:11:06 – 00:31:37:14
Unknown
The moral boundaries involved in it. Yeah. Any final. No. That’s all I got. I’m here for it. Okay. Well turning to you, the listeners and the viewers who may or may not be chased by chainsaw swinging halberd men and are unequipped with, poison dart frog darts. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. And if you’d like to, please leave a five star review or like and subscribe wherever you find your podcast.
00:31:37:20 – 00:32:00:18
Unknown
If you’d like to donate, you can do so on Patreon with a monthly donation. We do have an announcement, but this one is for the Amazons to use. I’m ready. The. Yeah, a couple of us. A few of us are going to the Jubilee of Youth in Rome. It’s, July 28th through August 3rd. And it concludes with the canonization, canon.
00:32:00:18 – 00:32:19:08
Unknown
And as I can never pronounce that word. Lord, save us the thing we’re blessed for. Giorgio for said he becomes a saint. So you book your own travel, you book your own accommodations. But if you want to squad up with us for various events, we’re going to make those known as they take shape. So you can sign up on the website just to get updates.
00:32:19:08 – 00:32:28:07
Unknown
And then, as we supply them, we’ll look forward to kicking it together. That’s all I got. Okay. So know of our first you please pray for us. We’ll get you next time. On Godsplaining.
00:32:28:18 – 00:32:43:14
Unknown
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